Would you be opposed to SE implementing a program to scan for addons/parsers?

[Tulvi]

It is objectively toxic to not carry your weight in a cooperative setting. And the example you listed was not toxic. They gave a factual reason, left it at that, and mercilessly excised the problem player

It is only toxic if they do not carry their weight ON PURPOSE. Not knowing enough is not toxic. Do you really expect everyone to be on top of their game, even if they’ve never done high-end content before?

And I must disagree. Kicking somebody without giving them a chance to do better is toxic and incredibly rude.

[Zebraoracle]

And I must disagree. Kicking somebody without giving them a chance to do better is toxic and incredibly rude.

Oh look at that, something else you're wrong about. You're allowed to remove anyone you wish from your PF party for any reason at all.
In Duty Finder, you may vote kick anyone for as simple a reason as "difference in playstyle".

[Tulvi]

Oh look at that, something else you're wrong about. You're allowed to remove anyone you wish from your PF party for any reason at all.
In Duty Finder, you may vote kick anyone for as simple a reason as "difference in playstyle".

The fact that we have an option to kick players (no matter the reason), doesn’t mean we should jump straight to kicking them without making an effort to let them improve. Do you automatically vote to kick people from an Alliance raid if they fail a mechanic? I doubt it. All I said is that it is toxic to kick somebody WITHOUT giving them a fair chance to do better the following run.

[ForteNightshade]

FF: If a group fails a DPS check, everyone will try harder, because it’s not possible to see who is struggling the most.

This is an incredibly naive mindset. How can everyone "try harder" when no one has the slightest clue why they reached enrage? You mention having only really done Extremes. So here's the thing. Extremes have a comically low threshold to clear. Rubicante can allow upwards of like 8+ deaths and you'll still make the check provided everyone knows what they're doing. This is very much not the case for Savage, especially in the early weeks. Even after the nerf and three weeks worth of gear, you'll still see enrage without everyone pumping in P8S. You really can't compare the two until after you start getting gear which neuters the DPS check quite significantly.

And I must disagree. Kicking somebody without giving them a chance to do better is toxic and incredibly rude.

A party leader is under no obligation to give you any chance. In fact, they can kick you simply for disliking your glamour. It's their party after all. Now most parties won't kick immediately and give people a chance to work out whatever kinks they need but if you're messing up several times then it's well within their right to rep you. Although, even in such a scenario a lot of people will simply disband and possibly reform with the good players.

And since the devs’ official stance on DPS meters is that they are against them, I’d expect people that prog Ultimate to not use them. Aren’t raiders that prog Ultimate usually the most skilled players anyway? Don’t they form static groups with people they know are good at their classes?

Let me give you a scenario I ran into a while back that really highlights why parsers are so useful.

Back near the end Shadowbringers I was helping a friend clear TEA. Now three of us were using relics and nearly everyone had dungeon BiS which is a massive upswing in damage from when the fight released. Nevertheless, we still saw enrage clean on more than one occasion. Which just shouldn't happen. I cleared TEA on content with far less gear. So the raid lead and I started looking through logs to determine the issue. Turns out neither healer had optimizing their healing and were essentially healing over each other and not dealing damage. They were a combined 2,000 below expected DPS relative to other groups. My co-tank was also struggling. Without ACT and FFlogs, you'd be inclined to put that blame on the DPS since it's a DPS check and all. They were all fine. Sure, they could have pumped out a little more but at that point you're squeezing blood from a stone.

Once we sorted out that issue and the healers focused more on improving their DPS, we cleared.

At the high-end level parsers are simply far too valuable a tool in a game centered around DPS. I can assure you their removal would actually lead to more toxicity because now you'd have people blindly pointing the finger at each other without any idea who's actually struggling.

[Ivtrix]

This is an incredibly naive mindset. How can everyone "try harder" when no one has the slightest clue why they reached enrage? You mention having only really done Extremes. So here's the thing. Extremes have a comically low threshold to clear. Rubicante can allow upwards of like 8+ deaths and you'll still make the check provided everyone knows what they're doing. This is very much not the case for Savage, especially in the early weeks. Even after the nerf and three weeks worth of gear, you'll still see enrage without everyone pumping in P8S. You really can't compare the two until after you start getting gear which neuters the DPS check quite significantly.



A party leader is under no obligation to give you any chance. In fact, they can kick you simply for displaying your glamour. It's their party after all. Now most parties won't kick immediately and give people a chance to work out whatever kinks they need but if you're messing up several times then it's well within their right to rep you. Although, even in such a scenario a lot of people will simply disband and possibly reform with the good players.



Let me give you a scenario I ran into a while back that really highlights why parsers are so useful.

Back near the end Shadowbringers I was helping a friend clear TEA. Now three of us were using relics and nearly everyone had dungeon BiS which is a massive upswing in damage from when the fight released. Nevertheless, we still saw enrage clean on more than one occasion. Which just shouldn't happen. I cleared TEA on content with far less gear. So the raid lead and I started looking through logs to determine the issue. Turns out neither healer had optimizing their healing and were essentially healing over each other and not dealing damage. They were a combined 2,000 below expected DPS relative to other groups. My co-tank was also struggling. Without ACT and FFlogs, you'd be inclined to put that blame on the DPS since it's a DPS check and all. They were all fine. Sure, they could have pumped out a little more but at that point you're squeezing blood from a stone.

Once we sorted out that issue and the healers focused more on improving their DPS, we cleared.

At the high-end level parsers are simply far too valuable a tool in a game centered around DPS. I can assure you their removal would actually lead to more toxicity because now you'd have people blindly pointing the finger at each other without any idea who's actually struggling.

A lot of people who don’t touch higher end content don’t realize that in higher end content healer dps isn’t optional, optimization is mandatory. There is no way to meet the p4 dps check in TOP without healers pumping