Would you be opposed to SE implementing a program to scan for addons/parsers?

[Midareyukki]

But to what degree would they work is the question? Would you be banned for using QoL plugins without which the game is quite literally unplayable for many people and SE is far too lazy these days to even consider adding them.What about Gshade?

I feel like SE truly doesn't care about QoL, HUD or Gshade stuff, but they are bothered by Raid cheats and I'm not sure if they could find a way to prevent one without preventing the others which is likely why they haven't come up with an anti-cheat yet.

They don't. A mod called Hvinire already mentioned as much as far back as 2013.

Third party tools like reshade seem to be fine, and I'll get to a technicality later. Tools that give an unfair advantage such as housing bots, market bots, gathering bots, overlays, and yes, even zoom hacks, are not allowed. Cosmetic things aren't fine, but there's no motivation to check files or persecute people as long as they are quiet about it.

Their stance has always been "They aren't allowed. But we have no intention of going after people who use it unless it's made public or it's causing problems".

Yoshida usually says so every time there's an interview. But the one time he didn't put in that disclaimer, encompassed every potential third party tool regardless of impact in gameplay or fairness, is the one time people decide to ignore everything else Yoshida said so far and start going nuts about their existence. All about one sentence.

This topic isn't new, and his responses aren't new either. Everyone and their grandmother has heard it all before. This is from a 14h livestream on 10-08-2022.

Q3: During the previous PLL you mentioned that if we are just playing it normally this shouldn't be concerning us and we have been playing things normally but I do see terms like third party tools that are against the rules and regulations being listed as required in Lodestone or mentioned in forums, and I personally dislike talking about third party tools so to have to mention to these players about how using third party tools during recruitment and whatnot are being forbidden really makes me sad sometimes, so if you have plans on trying to provide warning to those who continue using third party tools, or any plans that deal with those who use third party tools, I would like to know.

YoshiP: We have no plans in trying to delve into this issue any further. I am aware of how impactful my words are when it comes to this issue, so if I were to keep on providing explanation further about this issue like saying using such and such in particular is against the ToS it will cause a terrifying amount of mass reports and it becomes a issue of what's the point of even playing the game.....so yeah. And if you are to ask me if I would go my way to crack down on third party sites that upload everyone's data (it's obvious that he mentions FFLOGS in this case), and this..well I am aware of how much of the nuisance that site caused, having to see the numbers we don't want to see, that are normally not displayed in the game and then get told about it ...but as mentioned before that if we are told that this concerns personal issues it's not something we could........this is something we have to keep fighting with, and that could end up really unhealthy I think...of course if we could quash them for causing such trouble we could have done it.

But still......I mean, this is related to the conversation we had earlier but to define all things in black and white is something I think I find it stiff....of course this depends on personality as well... of course my real intention here is to do things that are fun, and this is what I've been doing up till now and I try to avoid doing things that cause people discomfort...still, this is getting out of topic but I believe I've been saying more than what I should have in this matter as a member of this company, as a board director, as a gamer, in personal capacity and as someone who obtained full trust from the company, and I've likely touched on this topic more than I should have. So I don't think I'll be able to step into this issue anymore and I think we had enough debates about this already..so yeah, I don't want this game to end up a game that mainly cracks things down and I don't want to create a game like this either. If we have to remove everything then might as well not work on the game and it'll be a game where everything becomes a mess. So even if I get pressed on the issue it's going to be nothing but trouble so yeah I'm sorry that's going to be the answer I'll provide

And this is from a statement done shortly before 5.2 in February 2020.

Another topic they wanna discuss are 3rd party tools
"Since the player base increased a lot, I feel like I should talk about this because of the different backgrounds players have"
"It is against the ToS to use 3rd party tools, please refrain from using them. There can be consequences like penalties to your account"
"But what about apps like Discord, being in voice chat technically is using a 3rd party tool"
"There isn't really anything "bad" happening to the game if you use these apps, not like you are rewriting data or input anything into the game... so it is hard to draw the line between tools we "accept" and the ones that break the game"
"DPS meters simply add the numbers that are shown in your battle logs... It isn't accessing game files. What if I get asked "So can i use a calculator instead?"... Really?"
"I am an engineer myself, I understand you could just write an Excel macro to read the log file after a fight is done. But I am taking a stance on this, we won't know what you have installed on your PC, but 3rd party tools are against the ToS, grey zone is still grey, I am asking you to not use these 3rd party tools"

They've literally never allowed 3rd party tools of any kind, and while they recognize the utility brough by some, they still would prefer to discourage it. They operate mostly on a "don't ask don't tell" policy, but definitely do take matters when someone is caught.

Everyone knows this. This is how it's been like for years. Yoshida saying "No third party tool is allowed" won't change it.

And he defined 3rd Party Tools in the 9th of May of last year in the Lodestone here.

The only one that I think pertains to shaders in any way might be the UI modifications, which he defined as

tools to expand the HUD and display more information because they feel that existing functions are insufficient for tackling high-end duties

He wants to discourage their use and implement them into the game, least of which to give Console players with difficulties a fair chance. Which is fine. It's even desirable. However, shaders don't expand or display any more information, they just alter the visual information you get. NVidia has such tools, and you kind of can't stop NVidia from loading them since that's what's going to render the game altogether. And if what the shader is doing is making the information that's there visible to you so that you can understand it the same way others do (ie, if you're colourblind), is that considered additional information, or is it not? This is debateable. Because on one hand you can argue that it's not, it's the same sort of information everyone else but you has had... but at the same time, Console players won't be allowed to have this sort of tool, sooo.... :shrug:

TLDR: it really doesn't matter. No tool is allowed, but as long as you're not being an idiot and displaying it out to the world, you're fine. There are some tools that SE acknowledges and will try to bring them in to discourage others from using.

[FireMage]

No imho it isn’t stupid. DPS meters undeniably create toxicity.
FF: If a group fails a DPS check, everyone will try harder, because it’s not possible to see who is struggling the most.
WoW: If a group fails a DPS check, the one who has the lowest DPS gets kicked immediately.

Which game of those two do you want to play? After 10 years of WoW where I was afraid to even try raiding, I’m glad I’m playing FF instead now. DPS meters are not necessary at all and the day FF allows them, will be the day I quit FF.

You can easily pinpoint a low-performing player even without a DPS meter. Experienced players can immediately tell who doesn’t know their rotation even without a DPS meter. There’s no need to reduce group effort to plain numbers like in WoW.

No, bad players not carrying their weight create toxicity, not meters. Also given your numbers of course a community that actively dismisses bads would make you "afraid"

[Tulvi]

This is one of the most ignorant posts in this thread lol.

Who are YOU to tell someone they're playing wrong? Who are YOU to complain about how people enjoy the game? Who are YOU to say it's wrong for people to enjoy trying to parse well? Who are you to claim your subjective opinion on the weapon appearance is fact (spoilers: I think almost all of the ultimate weapon skins are ugly).

Why do you think people raiding to parse aren't "doing it for the challenge"? The sheer arrogance of this post to act like your way of playing is the only correct way of playing, good lord.

1. First of all, it isn’t only my way of playing the game. The devs of the game clearly don’t want players to use these tools especially in PvE, because they create an unfair advantage. So if somebody clears an Ultimate with these tools and apparently thanks to these tools, they have not cleared the content as intended by the devs. In a sense they’ve cleared something else.

2. Most of the time, what wipes parties in FF is not DPS checks, it is incorrectly solved mechanics or standing in an AoE. Therefore using DPS meters brings no value to the fight. Regarding other tools, like zoom hacks and mechanics solvers / announcements, I stand by my claim that people who need them, are not playing the content as intended and are missing the entire point of high-end content in FF14. Which again, is not about DPS, but about solving mechanics.

[JOsha]

I know, I've read the statements. All I'm saying is that while they have to say they don't support them or allow them, they just don't care if you're using non-hacky plugins. Or at least if you're not going around advertising about their usage in-game, you're free to go. They know the backlash if they tried to prevent all plugins which is why they haven't made an "anti-cheat" yet,

[Brandt_Nunh]

Fine don't call it cheating nevertheless it is a prohibited action within FFXIV end of the day it is something they devs have repeatedly asked the community to not use or do in of form of don't use or be open about the use of third party add-ons or tools.

No.

They talked about cosmetic mods specifically more than once and said "don't talk about using them and we don't have a problem."

The billboard goons didn't catch bans, you think the poor Hrothgar who wants to wear the new Valentione's hat is gonna?

Yes, they said don't be OPEN. But that's the extent.

Now with actual hacks? Yeah. Yoshi P has said don't use hacks. Please stop conflating the two because it's a really bad look.

[JOsha]

No imho it isn’t stupid. DPS meters undeniably create toxicity.
FF: If a group fails a DPS check, everyone will try harder, because it’s not possible to see who is struggling the most.WoW: If a group fails a DPS check, the one who has the lowest DPS gets kicked immediately..

Is that the fantasy you live in? Clearly shows you've never done any hard content in-game, definitely not via the PF at least. People just leave or complain if the party keeps failing a DPS check.

[Tulvi]

No, bad players not carrying their weight create toxicity, not meters. Also given your numbers of course a community that actively dismisses bads would make you "afraid"

Bad players create toxicity? Sorry, but then we understand toxicity differently. I have never seen a bad player insult the good ones when being called out, only apologise and express willingness to learn. But I’ve seen too much of “bro, your DPS sucks” (followed by a kick from a party in WoW without any discussion).

It isn’t toxic to not know your class 100% or make an occasional mistake.
It could be toxic only in case of trolling, but that’s a completely different discussion.

[FireMage]

Bad players create toxicity? Sorry, but then we understand toxicity differently. I have never seen a bad player insult the good ones when being called out, only apologise and express willingness to learn. But I’ve seen too much of “bro, your DPS sucks” (followed by a kick from a party in WoW without any discussion).

It isn’t toxic to not know your class 100% or make an occasional mistake.
It could be toxic only in case of trolling, but that’s a completely different discussion.

It is objectively toxic to not carry your weight in a cooperative setting. And the example you listed was not toxic. They gave a factual reason, left it at that, and mercilessly excised the problem player

[Tulvi]

Is that the fantasy you live in? Clearly shows you've never done any hard content in-game, definitely not via the PF at least. People just leave or complain if the party keeps failing a DPS check.

I do Extreme trials in PF mostly. And I have never seen anyone leave because of a failed DPS check. Tbh, I’ve never seen anyone fail a DPS check other that enrage. 100% of my experience with people leaving is when somebody fails a mechanic, not a DPS check.

Also since I do mostly only Extreme trials, usually the only DPS check there is the enrage. If we fail it, no one leaves because we know we can do it as we are really close to kill.

I can’t speak for Savage as I rarely do them, because progging it requires a static and I’m not playing the game on a scheduled basis. So if there are more DPS checks in Savage, then sure, I can see why would people leave, but my personal experience from Extremes is that DPS check is never the reason to leave and I really never seen it happen.

[Midareyukki]

1. First of all, it isn’t only my way of playing the game. The devs of the game clearly don’t want players to use these tools especially in PvE, because they create an unfair advantage. So if somebody clears an Ultimate with these tools and apparently thanks to these tools, they have not cleared the content as intended by the devs. In a sense they’ve cleared something else.

2. Most of the time, what wipes parties in FF is not DPS checks, it is incorrectly solved mechanics or standing in an AoE. Therefore using DPS meters brings no value to the fight. Regarding other tools, like zoom hacks and mechanics solvers / announcements, I stand by my claim that people who need them, are not playing the content as intended and are missing the entire point of high-end content in FF14. Which again, is not about DPS, but about solving mechanics.

...okay, enough of this please.

If you are going to start debating on this topic, at least make sure you understand what actually is being used, how it affects the gameplay and whether or not led to the current problem. You and everyone else.

1 - Parsing does not create an unfair advantage*. What it does is present numbers to you. The issue with parses that makes them illegal isn't the fact that people can know numbers or not. Those numbers are available on the Battle chat, so if anyone collects it, runs it through excel and makes a graph, it might take a long time but it's still going to yield the same result. What makes them legal is that this information is being accessed directly from the server and calculated in real time. And there's a potential danger that it can then be used to harass others on the spot.
FFLogs doesn't give anyone any upper edge. All it does is take all that data, whether from Excel or from ACT (but since ACT is a lot more standardized and less prone to mistakes, that's what they'll take) and make it public. The illegality here is having in-game stuff being made public outside of Lodestone, and again the aforementioned potential danger for harassment.
*You can argue, however, that the advantage exists against Console players, which is a correct statement to make. But the use of parsing alone does not mean you will have an advantage of clearing the fight, which was what you're saying.

No one clears Ultimate because they know how much the Bard dealt damage. That's not how it works.

Stuff like Cactbot are things attached onto ACT which give out call-outs by parsing server information. That is an advantage.
And what led to this particular Ultimate being cleared were people using zoomhacks to get information that wouldn't otherwise be displayed to them in full. That is an advantage.
Same for UWU whose script was datamined and later used to clear the fight. That was an advantage that people who got that information had.

ACT doesn't enable datamining or zoomhacking, but does enable Cactbot. Not by default, however, and Cactbot needs to be programmed to work out the fight. So the fight needs to be cleared first so Cactbot is then fed.

People who parse aren't cheating just because they parse, they're just being fed information that would be monotonous otherwise to obtain.
Prior to 6.3, you could argue "Ah, but they're getting information on which hit is magical or physical". That advantage no longer exists.
You could argue "Ah but now they have a more accurate timeline of the fight", which sure, but they won't be keeping track of time. To do so, you'd need other tools than parsing. And at that point, you're already going outside of parsing altogether. Not everyone who uses parsing tools does this, and to claim that they do is just unrealistic and fearmongering.

What led to this ultimate being cleared was Zoom Hacks. Not parsing. It never was parsing.

2- Failing DPS checks is too broad a thing to point out, you know? Because if the majority of the party is dead or has died recently and has the penalty, they will not get enough DPS in the long run to clear things. And nothing kills more people than mechanics that weren't properly executed. So one leads to the other: both statements are correct.

And the people who are using zoomhacks and call-out bots like Cactbot inherently are cheating anyway, so...