Please bring back Kaiten

[Ransu]

There are plenty of these posts in the DPS forum.

P.S. Good riddance to Kaiten

Someone's bad at the game.

[Deveryn]

Someone's bad at the game.

Come find out.

I can always get better, but Kaiten will never come back at this rate.

[Ransu]

Come find out.

I can always get better, but Kaiten will never come back at this rate.

Don't need to find anything out. Saying good riddance to kaitan while you haven't even touched savage content tells me everything I need to know.

I don't expect kaiten to come back, but don't inject yourself into a conversation with bad takes if you don't understand why kaiten being gone is a bad thing.

[Deveryn]

Don't need to find anything out. Saying good riddance to kaitan while you haven't even touched savage content tells me everything I need to know.

I don't expect kaiten to come back, but don't inject yourself into a conversation with bad takes if you don't understand why kaiten being gone is a bad thing.

I have touched savage. I lost interest. I'll try again when I feel like finding a static. I think it's sad that you need to resort to personal attacks when you're wrong about something. You clearly have no argument to support adding kaiten back.

[Alice9]

I want Kaiten back as well. Samurai gameplay feels unrewarding and incredibly hollow without it.

[Tint]

Kaiten will not come back.

It's too difficult to balance the job when the off-GCD damage ressource interacts with the GCD damage in such a way.

You have to make sure that Shinten spam is always stronger than Kaiten spam while at the same time Shinten spam is always weaker than using Kaiten in specific situations.

What that means is that when they have to increase SAMs dps they can't simply increase the potency of the combo finishers and be done with it because it could happen that Kaiten on the combo finisher would become stronger than using Shinten. So they have to increase the potency of Shinten. But they have to make sure that Shinten does not become Stronger than Kaiten on your 3-Sticker-Attack.
Plus they have backed themself into a corner when it comes to adding new skills.

So what could they do? Kaiten interacts only with that one other skill? Sounds like the button bloat they said they wanted to remove when they took Kaiten away.

The mistake was to remove Kaiten mid-expansion with nothing new to add to the gameplay for another 2 years, not that they removed Kaiten in general.

[Coatl]

Kaiten will not come back.

It's too difficult to balance the job when the off-GCD damage ressource interacts with the GCD damage in such a way.

You have to make sure that Shinten spam is always stronger than Kaiten spam while at the same time Shinten spam is always weaker than using Kaiten in specific situations.

What that means is that when they have to increase SAMs dps they can't simply increase the potency of the combo finishers and be done with it because it could happen that Kaiten on the combo finisher would become stronger than using Shinten. So they have to increase the potency of Shinten. But they have to make sure that Shinten does not become Stronger than Kaiten on your 3-Sticker-Attack.
Plus they have backed themself into a corner when it comes to adding new skills.

So what could they do? Kaiten interacts only with that one other skill? Sounds like the button bloat they said they wanted to remove when they took Kaiten away.

The mistake was to remove Kaiten mid-expansion with nothing new to add to the gameplay for another 2 years, not that they removed Kaiten in general.

FF14 Community explaining why your DPS job can't have more than 1 button.

[CelestiCer]

FF14 Community explaining why your DPS job can't have more than 1 button.

There's the based take, thank god for this one

[CelestiCer]

Kaiten will not come back.

It's too difficult to balance the job when the off-GCD damage ressource interacts with the GCD damage in such a way.

You have to make sure that Shinten spam is always stronger than Kaiten spam while at the same time Shinten spam is always weaker than using Kaiten in specific situations.

What that means is that when they have to increase SAMs dps they can't simply increase the potency of the combo finishers and be done with it because it could happen that Kaiten on the combo finisher would become stronger than using Shinten. So they have to increase the potency of Shinten. But they have to make sure that Shinten does not become Stronger than Kaiten on your 3-Sticker-Attack.
Plus they have backed themself into a corner when it comes to adding new skills.

So what could they do? Kaiten interacts only with that one other skill? Sounds like the button bloat they said they wanted to remove when they took Kaiten away.

The mistake was to remove Kaiten mid-expansion with nothing new to add to the gameplay for another 2 years, not that they removed Kaiten in general.

What in the...

[ForsakenRoe]

Kaiten will not come back.

It's too difficult to balance the job when the off-GCD damage ressource interacts with the GCD damage in such a way.

You have to make sure that Shinten spam is always stronger than Kaiten spam while at the same time Shinten spam is always weaker than using Kaiten in specific situations.

What that means is that when they have to increase SAMs dps they can't simply increase the potency of the combo finishers and be done with it because it could happen that Kaiten on the combo finisher would become stronger than using Shinten. So they have to increase the potency of Shinten. But they have to make sure that Shinten does not become Stronger than Kaiten on your 3-Sticker-Attack.
Plus they have backed themself into a corner when it comes to adding new skills.

So what could they do? Kaiten interacts only with that one other skill? Sounds like the button bloat they said they wanted to remove when they took Kaiten away.

The mistake was to remove Kaiten mid-expansion with nothing new to add to the gameplay for another 2 years, not that they removed Kaiten in general.

1: Yes, but not because it was bad, but because SE's decided it needs to go, and had no intention of bringing it back, as evidenced by the amount of outcry about it's removal and the subsequent silence from SE about it

2: No? They managed it in SHB well enough.

3: Yes? That's how 'balancing a job's damage output' works, and they managed it in SHB.

4/5: See 3. They also added 3 skills in SHB that didn't get screwed by 'oh you have to make sure Kaiten's more efficient than Shinten spam'. It's nothing to do with Kaiten's potency, but it's 'potency per kenki ratio'. If Kaiten-Midare works out to be 12 potency per Kenki, and Shinten works out to be 10p per kenki, then 'use Kaiten on Midare, use Shinten to avoid overcap' is the gameplay. Add a new skill that is a 40s CD, costs 40 kenki, and does 500p damage. Wow, it works out to be 12.5 potency per kenki, therefore higher priority than both Kaiten-Midare and Shinten. So you'd pool kenki ahead of this new move, so you don't lose out on Kaiten Midares.

6: If they had replaced Kaiten with something, it'd hurt a little less. But the issue is, the removal of Kaiten turned the Kenki meter into the Shinten meter. Senei (costs 25) and Ikishoten (gives 50) both are 2min CDs, so they naturally line up. If SE wanted to remove 'button bloat', they could change Senei from 'costs 25' to 'grants 25', 'grants Ogi ready' and just delete Ikishoten. Or combine Shoha and Shoha2. Unless they mean it was APM bloat, in which case they're even less aware than expected, as we still have the same Kenki income. We just use it on Shinten now instead of Kaiten. The APM hasn't changed.

Kaiten's removal was not necessary. If SE couldn't work out how to 'fix issues that Kaiten caused', it's not Kaiten was impossible to work around, it's because the devs have run out of creativity to the point where they can't design around something as simple as Kaiten. Not a good sign for class design going forward.