Thread: 2.0: New Disciple of Magic or Spell Reform?

Even before the revamp... I really didn't feel any debuffs/enfeebles were worth casting. They had a negligible impact. Slow was the only spell that I recall that "seemed" to work. My experience with binds was that they really lasted barely a second.

Maybe they realized that "recreating" debuffs in the new system was a lost cause during the revamp? Or at least creating a class centered around debuffs and enfeebling just wasn't going to work?

2.0 is an interesting beast because we really don't know how much of the core game that we already know will change. At one point, I expected essentially reworked maps, reworked graphics engine and reworked quests/content. Now, based on interviews, it seems like they're revamping/reworking almost everything.

I do agree, in order for a debuff class to work, it needs to be useful and be impactful throughout an entire combat scenario.

Originally Posted by giolli

Even before the revamp... I really didn't feel any debuffs/enfeebles were worth casting. They had a negligible impact. Slow was the only spell that I recall that "seemed" to work. My experience with binds was that they really lasted barely a second.

I do agree, in order for a debuff class to work, it needs to be useful and be impactful throughout an entire combat scenario.

Thaumaturge was my main the first year I played and I thoroughly enjoyed the job UP until the spell reforms. My main job as THM was to debuff and enfeeble, and I never really had any issues with it, or with them landing. I thoroughly enjoyed being a support mage, and with how the game was back then, you needed at least 1 THM in your pt to debuff/enfeeble (it really helped in darkhold). Not sure how anyone else feels, but I totally miss that about the old spells/actions. I liked the idea of combos, but they totally destroyed THM by making it an elemental class. I had always wondered, if they make another job from THM, that job isnt gonna differ much from either BLM or THM because it's still gonna be casting thunder/fire combos >.>

I really want Arcanist, and if we get it, I hope its what THM used to be.

Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

Thaumaturge was my main the first year I played and I thoroughly enjoyed the job UP until the spell reforms. My main job as THM was to debuff and enfeeble, and I never really had any issues with it, or with them landing. I thoroughly enjoyed being a support mage, and with how the game was back then, you needed at least 1 THM in your pt to debuff/enfeeble (it really helped in darkhold). Not sure how anyone else feels, but I totally miss that about the old spells/actions. I liked the idea of combos, but they totally destroyed THM by making it an elemental class. I had always wondered, if they make another job from THM, that job isnt gonna differ much from either BLM or THM because it's still gonna be casting thunder/fire combos >.>

I really want Arcanist, and if we get it, I hope its what THM used to be.

Unless they change the current system of enfeebling, the class won't be high in demand. Why take a job that won't effect bosses too much, or trash mobs that die from a spam fest of steel cyclone, drg combos,and blm with the fire line, the only time making fire spells good for anything (still not a good thing).

Jinrya, could you give me the short on each spell's situational usage for BLM? I have yet to level a BLM to 50, since I stopped playing casters after Conjurer's lost the elemental wheel and Thaumaturges lost the majority of their playstyle connection to lore (imo).

From what I've heard so far, it sounds like each spell type covers one purpose (Fire chain - AoE, Blizzard chain - slowing, Thunder - damage), and since damage is the only thing that doesn't run out of use, 80+% of casts are for the Thunder Chain. Is that approximately right?

_________________________
(To be replaced once I've heard what the playstyle is actually like)
If that's the case, the easiest increase to enjoyable variability would be to create either combo branching, rather than mere combo chaining, which seems helpful for just about any class, or to have a sort of secondary tier to combo-ing, a bit like turning the intentions of a series of spells. This would probably be done through another spell, though it should be one that's neither so commonly used as to be annoying, nor as unused as I hear many BLM auxiliary spells are. A pair of spells though, might be more appropriate.

For example, if you spammed Thunder for a minute straight, you could hit this spell and cast Blizzard, which would cause the target to take a chance at being stunned (slowing / debilitation being the basic 'intention' of Blizzard), based on damage taken compared to its health per second over the next variable (additional Blizzard casts increasing time?) duration.

The issue with that though would be that something has to keep track of the "spamming Thunder for a minute straight", which would likely require either another spell, or a passive Stance / Style type spectrum, (between Damage, Dispersal, and Debilitation so to speak).

Otherwise, one could play on that concept further by using a second spell (Element Soul / Resonance) enabling a larger, more powerful cast of a certain element available to them with the more effect that spell type has had while the spell was active. So, cast Resonance, stack a bunch of Fire-type spells while wiping out small mobs, maybe spreading debuffs along the way, perhaps even including spreading them onto the larger mobs, neglecting direct debuff defenses, though with a lower base chance. Then, use the first spell (Will of the Wheel / Intent), start stacking Frost-types on the boss, building up a Debilitation-type intent. [*This would probably also require that Frost spells could actually do more than merely induce Heavy, and that enfeebling effects in general were greater, with a larger number of total effects possible, with multiple tiers in source and niche.] Once the next wave of small adds spawn I use Fire-type spells, releasing my Resonance charge on Firaga, with the intention still on Debilitation, taking all the stacked debuffs from the boss, along with some frost magic and dispersing it onto the mobs.

*I'd still need to figure out how this would differ from Fire-stacking, Frost burst, etc.

**Honestly, just because there are exactly 3 primary spell types in use, it seems best that there would be three spells added, which should cover and/or replace most functions of the present auxiliary spells while actually being used (and fun to use at that). However, other than the niche (Intent above), and basic elemental type (Resonance above), I can't think of anything atm. Maybe something to do with style, between Power, Speed, and Defense? Idk. I haven't thought that far ahead in this overblown reply. I just feel like it should be 3 and 3. Kind of like a spell wheel with 3 points of view on what separates these 3 particular elements, and the 3 elements themselves in each. Just instinct though. Nothing solidified yet.
________________________
*On the increased enfeebling ability of Frost-type spells mentioned before, I'd really like to be able to do something slow a boss's swing speed to keep a tank alive. But it should function in a different way than true "enfeebling debuffs", i.e. the difference between freezing someone's arm for a moment before the ice breaks and them being slowed exactly 30% for exactly 1 minute, the latter befitting a Thaumaturge far more than a Black Mage.

**I suppose the idea of Flame-magic being usable for dispersal would follow the same idea. Likewise, Thunder-magic perhaps being able to cause slight defense losses of its own, in an aggregate, non-absolute way (not as if by a rule), as mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Jinrya, could you give me the short on each spell's situational usage for BLM? I have yet to level a BLM to 50, since I stopped playing casters after Conjurer's lost the elemental wheel and Thaumaturges lost the majority of their playstyle connection to lore (imo).

From what I've heard so far, it sounds like each spell type covers one purpose (Fire chain - AoE, Blizzard chain - slowing, Thunder - damage), and since damage is the only thing that doesn't run out of use, 80+% of casts are for the Thunder Chain. Is that approximately right?

_________________________
(To be replaced once I've heard what the playstyle is actually like)
If that's the case, the easiest increase to enjoyable variability would be to create either combo branching, rather than mere combo chaining, which seems helpful for just about any class, or to have a sort of secondary tier to combo-ing, a bit like turning the intentions of a series of spells. This would probably be done through another spell, though it should be one that's neither so commonly used as to be annoying, nor as unused as I hear many BLM auxiliary spells are. A pair of spells though, might be more appropriate.

For example, if you spammed Thunder for a minute straight, you could hit this spell and cast Blizzard, which would cause the target to take a chance at being stunned (slowing / debilitation being the basic 'intention' of Blizzard), based on damage taken compared to its health per second over the next variable (additional Blizzard casts increasing time?) duration.

The issue with that though would be that something has to keep track of the "spamming Thunder for a minute straight", which would likely require either another spell, or a passive Stance / Style type spectrum, (between Damage, Dispersal, and Debilitation so to speak).

Otherwise, one could play on that concept further by using a second spell (Element Soul / Resonance) enabling a larger, more powerful cast of a certain element available to them with the more effect that spell type has had while the spell was active. So, cast Resonance, stack a bunch of Fire-type spells while wiping out small mobs, maybe spreading debuffs along the way, perhaps even including spreading them onto the larger mobs, neglecting direct debuff defenses, though with a lower base chance. Then, use the first spell (Will of the Wheel / Intent), start stacking Frost-types on the boss, building up a Debilitation-type intent. [*This would probably also require that Frost spells could actually do more than merely induce Heavy, and that enfeebling effects in general were greater, with a larger number of total effects possible, with multiple tiers in source and niche.] Once the next wave of small adds spawn I use Fire-type spells, releasing my Resonance charge on Firaga, with the intention still on Debilitation, taking all the stacked debuffs from the boss, along with some frost magic and dispersing it onto the mobs.

*I'd still need to figure out how this would differ from Fire-stacking, Frost burst, etc.

**Honestly, just because there are exactly 3 primary spell types in use, it seems best that there would be three spells added, which should cover and/or replace most functions of the present auxiliary spells while actually being used (and fun to use at that). However, other than the niche (Intent above), and basic elemental type (Resonance above), I can't think of anything atm. Maybe something to do with style, between Power, Speed, and Defense? Idk. I haven't thought that far ahead in this overblown reply. I just feel like it should be 3 and 3. Kind of like a spell wheel with 3 points of view on what separates these 3 particular elements, and the 3 elements themselves in each. Just instinct though. Nothing solidified yet.
________________________
*On the increased enfeebling ability of Frost-type spells mentioned before, I'd really like to be able to do something slow a boss's swing speed to keep a tank alive. But it should function in a different way than true "enfeebling debuffs", i.e. the difference between freezing someone's arm for a moment before the ice breaks and them being slowed exactly 30% for exactly 1 minute, the latter befitting a Thaumaturge far more than a Black Mage.

**I suppose the idea of Flame-magic being usable for dispersal would follow the same idea. Likewise, Thunder-magic perhaps being able to cause slight defense losses of its own, in an aggregate, non-absolute way (not as if by a rule), as mentioned above.

I will try. Fire spells, they are only good for trash mobs. On bosses, they do absolutely crap damage. My best example for this would be chimera. Fire against chimera is terrible. I boost my damage with intelligence and magic attack potency, but against the boss itself it's bad damage. Against the adds like the ants of princess or chimera ant adds it kills them pretty fast. I don't like that. The boss is always more important than the adds.

Blizzard, against even Garuda, who is supposed to be susceptible to ice because she is a wind, doesn't matter. The damage is terrible. Against spamming steel cyclone warriors or Dragoons, blizzard is useless, the mobs will be set free by bind or sleepga. Making the blizzard line useless.

Flare- is god damn useless because of the fact it's self-aoe.

Convert, I hardly use.

Sleepga, unless it's darkhold, I never use = worthless.

Like I said in another post. If more than half the spells are useless, then how is that successful as a class/job.

P.S Edit: Drunk at the moment, give me a few hours to collect my thoughts.

well, they also need to get passed the mentality of "Oh why do we need a debuffer? If we just through in a DD we'll kill it faster anyways." This game right now is far to DD heavy.

Like Red Mage for instance, Jack of all Trades, Master at Nothing, We know will be the Debuffer job, I havent played the original FFs to know exactly what red mage can do, but ill base it of of 11s Rdm.

What it Might be.

Debuffs - As of right now, Useless

White Magic - If it gets anything from Whm, it wont outshine Whm, EVER, unless it gets Reraise, shell, Haste and refresh, but asides from refresh, Whm will rage not getting the other 3.

Black Magic - Lets face it Red Mage will never touch Black Mage dmg, the only thing i see is Rdm actually getting the use of only Aero and Stone, but do to Rdm limitations of not getting the Higher tier it wont get the Ra's.

Red Magic - I for one expect obviously since they said Rdm will be a front line job the Return of the En spells, that Don't waste Mp like the Monk Hand of Line. ( And the weapon should have the effect on the Rdms Sword like the opening Trailer that the Caster used to put fire on the Arrow to kill the Marbolo). The Return of the Light and Dark dots Bio and Dia. Let Blm get the rest.

Melee - Fencer - Not sure about that but i thought i heard Rapiers will be their weapons, if anyone can show me this it be appreciated. Rapiers are Faster and Weaker than their Long Sword counter parts, Which would add to Rdm being the heavy DoT class.

But alas the Community gave Red Mage the second lowest vote, so probably wont see that for a while either. I bet the only reason why pet job won was cause everyone wants BeastMaster. I bet if Summoner had its own spot Its be at the bottom with Dark Knight and Red Mage.

Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

I bet if Summoner had its own spot Its be at the bottom with Dark Knight and Red Mage.

I beg to differ. lol