Middleground between normal/ hard content + coils of bahamut rework

[AyumiCosplayGlam]

I dont know if anyone share this opinion, but i feel like the game lacks a good middleground between normal and hard content.

Lets take Trials as an example.

You either do an normal version of the boss, or you do the extreme version.
The problem is, that even if you do the normal version 900 times, the extreme will still use mechanics that you never seen before and dont know how to deal with it.
A good example for this, is Diamond Weapon and the numbered cleaves mechanic.
No matter how many times you do the normal mode, you will never experience that mechanic unless you go into extreme.

I feel like there should be a middle ground version of fights like this, where the mechanic still occurs exactly like it does on extreme, but the attacks are telegraphed and less lethal overall so you can learn how to deal with it eventually,even through roulettes.
That way you could prepare for extreme fights without relying on youtube guides or having to go through the party finder rabbit hole.

I understand that some people like to figure out the fights in the hard way, but it makes no sense to not have a mode like this on fights that are not current content anymore.
Most people just get old content out of the way anyway by unsyncing and its not like you see many blind prog on old savage/extreme content, it is almost exclusively unsynced mount farming.

But by having a mode that helps players prepare for the hard mode of these fights, it would revitalize old content because suddenly there are more people willing to try it.
Not to mention how much pressure it would take off from mentor roulettes, extreme fights would not be such a boogeyman when people are more prepared for it overall.


As for the Coils of Bahamut part of my post.
When i first reached lvl50 and started to unlock the coils raid series, i cannot express how disheartened i was when i saw, that nobody is doing these raids.

At level 50, you suddenly unlock a horrendous amount of stuff in a very short period of time, that includes ARR Extremes and Coils.
It leaves a very bad taste in your mouth as a new player, when suddenly you just unlock a lot of stuff, that has dead que times and if you ask players about it, everyone will just say "dont bother with it" or "just unsync it".

We have the whole lvl50 normal raid series virtually unusable because of old design philosophy and all it does is turning away players in a part of the game that is already very difficult to get through. (post ARR)
Square really needs to rebuild Coils of Bahamut so it becomes actual content for low level players and obviously include the remade version in normal raid roulette for everyone else.
It baffles me how this part of the game is flat out ignored and left for dead for so long while we spend time adding trust system to dungeons that never had problems funneling players into it to begin with.

Thank you for listening this long, im curious what everyone else thinks about this.

[Seraphor]

Extreme is the middle ground.

Extreme requires more skill and coordination than 'normal' content, but you can easy jump into a PF or even DF sometimes, and complete it with randoms without voice comms.
Extremes build upon the 'normal' versions of them, making the normal version a learning tool for the Extreme.

Savage is a huge step up from Extreme, and requires a lot more focus, time learning, and party coordination.

As someone who mainly plays casually these days, I can still easily jump into an Extreme PF and prog that fight in an hour or two. But Savage isn't really an option without more prep and more time commitment.

Now I do think Coils is in need of a bit of a rework to make it a bit more accessible. That said, if anything is making you disheartened about the lack of player involvement, start a PF for it. No content in this game is 'dead', just because it's not on a roulette doesn't mean you can't find players to join you for it.

[CidHeiral]

Extremes are pretty easy as it is. If you're worried about a bad PF group while you learn the fight just create your own listing for it and make it clear in the bio that it's a learning party. In my experience people are usually pretty chill as long as the right expectations are set at the beginning.

[Tiramu]

I'm on the same DC as you, and a lot of what you're saying isn't stacking up to me. There are often synced prog groups on PF, and if you stick up a listing it will fill.

The problem is, that even if you do the normal version 900 times, the extreme will still use mechanics that you never seen before and dont know how to deal with it.
A good example for this, is Diamond Weapon and the numbered cleaves mechanic.
No matter how many times you do the normal mode, you will never experience that mechanic unless you go into extreme.

I don't get this. These are harder versions of the boss, so they introduce new challenges to learn.

I feel like there should be a middle ground version of fights like this, where the mechanic still occurs exactly like it does on extreme, but the attacks are telegraphed and less lethal overall so you can learn how to deal with it eventually,even through roulettes.

There already is a middle ground version of the Extremes - heck, there are two:

In order, hardest to easiest:
MINE: Synced, Min iLevel, No Echo - as close to how it was released as possible
Synced/No Echo: Synced, No Echo - A little easier (probably how most casual syncs clear)
Synced + Echo: Synced with Echo active (The bridging difficulty one)
Unsynced

I understand that some people like to figure out the fights in the hard way, but it makes no sense to not have a mode like this on fights that are not current content anymore.
Most people just get old content out of the way anyway by unsyncing and its not like you see many blind prog on old savage/extreme content, it is almost exclusively unsynced mount farming.

There are lots of players who want to run the content synced and blind. While mount farm groups are common, this doesn't mean players don't want to do MINE and/or blind progs.

If there isn't a blind prog group on PF, put up a PF listing and its just as likely to fill as any other. You can do it, trust me, really... you can.

As for the Coils of Bahamut part of my post.
When i first reached lvl50 and started to unlock the coils raid series, i cannot express how disheartened i was when i saw, that nobody is doing these raids.

At level 50, you suddenly unlock a horrendous amount of stuff in a very short period of time, that includes ARR Extremes and Coils.
It leaves a very bad taste in your mouth as a new player, when suddenly you just unlock a lot of stuff, that has dead que times and if you ask players about it, everyone will just say "dont bother with it" or "just unsync it".

This isn't because the content is dead, its because you're queueing for it in Duty Finder. High end content is typically ran through Party Finder, or through FC groups.

I kind of get people bailing out when they roll an Ex in MR. These battles take some preparation and time to prog. Most Ex's are like 1-2 hours to blind prog so they are better suited to PF.

[Jeeqbit]

Extremes are a good middle ground because you can do them in a day, but I do agree that there could be normal content that is slightly more fun ie. dungeons where you wipe if you don't use reprisal and tank busters kill you if you don't mitigate.

As it is now, the joy in dungeons comes from pulling mob packs. You wouldn't think the only challenge in dungeons would come from trash, but it does.

I don't think SE will do it though, because they don't want to pressure casual players to do hard content. If they did it, it would probably be thrown into some out-of-notice thing like Criterion.

We had "hard mode" dungeons before and nobody was regarding them as hard. They were just extra dungeons and stopped being made when we had enough dungeons.

It baffles me how this part of the game is flat out ignored and left for dead for so long while we spend time adding trust system to dungeons that never had problems funneling players into it to begin with.

Most old content is flat out ignored. It took them years to get round to revamping ARR, then to adding trusts, then to revamping all MSQ dungeons. Why? Because the newest content is and always will be the priority. Why? Because that is what makes players return to the game, subscribe and login.

Revamping old things is more of a long-term, side project, often done in their free time (like flying in ARR was).

[ThaCa]

The jump between Normal and Extreme is too big for the more casual players. People want to brush it off as if the game was good at introducing people to harder content with Extremes, it is not.

Something like 4 out of 5 friends found the jump too big compared to other games.

[Seraphor]

The jump between Normal and Extreme is too big for the more casual players. People want to brush it off as if the game was good at introducing people to harder content with Extremes, it is not.

Something like 4 out of 5 friends found the jump too big compared to other games.

I mean, Susano EX is demonstrably easier than Sunsano normal, due to ilevel scaling, and the only new mechanic is jumping over the void gap.
Lakshmi, Titania and Innocence were similarly 'easy' in comparison to other Extremes even if harder than normal mode, and Zodiark is mostly mindless follow-the-leader.
The mid-expansion Extremes are definitely stepping stones. Though Hydaelyn is a bit of an outlier I'd say, as movement and timing is very specific.

[LianaThorne]

snip

Off topic: Your Ra looks like Futaba from P5 and I love it.

On topic: Coils is a bit of a special case in terms of people not wanting to do it because of how rough certain ones can be sync'd. I agree with the person at the top who said they're in need of a rework because they are. I recently went through a couple of the savages MINE/sync no echo depending on which fight (I had a group that wanted to do them as they were on Day 1) and it's actually very apparent how different they are compared to our other raid series, not just in terms of difficulty (in my opinion at least). You can probably still get normal runs done though via the PF (DF is dead, don't even try) as I see groups still forming for those and some opt to do them unsync'd for certain gear part drops that can be sold for a little profit. Savage is a whole other story though lol.

As far as difficulty ranges in general, I feel like the same could be accomplished by just fitting more mechs into the normal version and giving more of an opportunity there rather than create an entirely new difficulty level. As others have said, extreme really is the next level up from normal but doesn't mean normal can't be adjusted to provide more of a challenge.

[Tiramu]

The jump between Normal and Extreme is too big for the more casual players. People want to brush it off as if the game was good at introducing people to harder content with Extremes, it is not.

Something like 4 out of 5 friends found the jump too big compared to other games.

They're talking about the jump from Normal to Extreme, not Savage though.

I don't think I really agree about the jump from Ex to Savage either. The content isn't all made equal, Thordan and Sephirot MINE are harder than some of the Savages and probably work as a decent stepping stone.

I think the problem some people have with the jump to Savage is cheesing the Extremes rather than trying to MINE them. Rushing the MSQ to endgame while ignoring or cheesing the hard content along the way, relying hard on guides, then sitting at current Savage wondering why you can't get a clear is a thing.

[Deveryn]

They're talking about the jump from Normal to Extreme, not Savage though.

I don't think I really agree about the jump from Ex to Savage either. The content isn't all made equal, Thordan and Sephirot MINE are harder than some of the Savages and probably work as a decent stepping stone.

I think the problem some people have with the jump to Savage is cheesing the Extremes rather than trying to MINE them. Rushing the MSQ to endgame while ignoring or cheesing the hard content along the way, relying hard on guides, then sitting at current Savage wondering why you can't get a clear is a thing.

I don't think guides are a problem, but I agree with everything else. In general, I feel like people don't run the content enough and at the proper level. There's a lot to be learned from running all the lower tier content because a lot of that stuff gets reused in extreme / savage. Guides are helpful when people are paying attention to everything and getting the practice they need before jumping into Duty Complete. Stat priorities likely get overlooked in the rush as well and that has an effect on performance.