What lore do you ignore?

[Theodric]

Oh, okay, so there's no interest whatsoever in finding textual foundation. Is it fanfiction if you're clearly in no way a fan of what the writers wrote? ...and also not actually writing anything. What's the 'minimum viable product' for fanfiction as a term, anyway?

Since there's no substance or evidence to any of this, I choose to ignore most of it, and instead try to 're-reail'.

You must have missed this, then:

The video in question can be found here, with perhaps the most relevant section being the one aptly titled 'excuses':

https://youtu.be/fsk412wCrJY?t=1101

It's admittedly a long video so it might be worth watching it in chapters but everything is sourced from the game itself, various lore related interviews and short stories. I don't know where this idea that the people countering Venat's motivations aren't equipped with sources is coming from since it only takes a look through the post history of someone like Rulakir or Lauront to see that, yes, they do source a lot of their talking points and explain their reasoning and conclusions clearly.

See, that's the thing - all of the points raised by myself and various other posters have been backed up with sources at length. We posted them for years and you either insulted us or ignored us...or scurried away pretending as if your points had not been countered. So we made a video to keep all the points and sources in one - admittedly large (but split into chapters) video for the sake of efficiency especially when this exact same song and dance has been going on for many years now, largely at the behest of those thoroughly allergic to the idea of simply agreeing to disagree on the basis that no, actually, nobody is obligated to like, dislike, or side with specific characters in a fictional setting let alone praise even their most horrific actions.

You're welcome not to watch it though please do not insinuate that these talking points are coming out of nowhere or are not based on anything outlined in the game.

My theory on how this happened was they were setting Venat up to be evil knowing we'd be killing both Zodiak and Hydaelyn, but that idea got vetoed by a higher up, so they switched up her tone without changing her actions. Cause I can't imagine from the onset they were aiming for her to be good and started with "then she sunders everyone with the full knowledge of the hell she'll be putting them through."

I think that's fairly likely. If not evil - which I never wanted her to be, for that matter - but definitely a tragic antagonist along the lines of Yunalesca who meant well but needed to be put down nonetheless. The fact that there was a major delay and a confirmed rewrite for the expansion is rather suspicious in itself, though it remains to be seen if any solid details ever come out on that front one way or another.

Well, as long as we don't do a colonialism. *begs* Please, please, please don't have us go there and colonize these people. I don't want to spend the next three years trying to explain why being a colonizer is a bad thing.

It's hard to say at this point, though my bet is that they'll attempt to be so very safe in the execution that it ends up coming off as incredibly condescending. It doesn't help that we're stuck with the Scions who have repeatedly proven to be rather...insistent on imprinting their cultural values and beliefs upon everybody else.

[Cleretic]

See, that's the thing - all of the points raised by myself and various other posters have been backed up with sources at length. We posted them for years and you either insulted us or ignored us...or scurried away pretending as if your points had not been countered. So we made a video to keep all the points and sources in one - admittedly large (but split into chapters) video for the sake of efficiency especially when this exact same song and dance has been going on for many years now, largely at the behest of those thoroughly allergic to the idea of simply agreeing to disagree on the basis that no, actually, nobody is obligated to like, dislike, or side with specific characters in a fictional setting let alone praise even their most horrific actions.

You're welcome not to watch it though please do not insinuate that these talking points are coming out of nowhere or are not based on anything outlined in the game.

I'm not going to watch your video, because I have other things to do with my hours. I'm sorry, but this subject is just less interesting than Deep Space Nine.

But those citations existing must make it much easier for you to produce quotes and citations for any claims you are making, right? I do my homework for my claims, you should do yous for yours. Give your argument the background color it deserves, in the space you're making it.

[Theodric]

I'm not going to watch your video, because I have other things to do with my hours. I'm sorry, but this subject is just less interesting than Deep Space Nine.

But those citations existing must make it much easier for you to produce quotes and citations for any claims you are making, right? I do my homework for my claims, you should do yous for yours. Give your argument the background color it deserves, in the space you're making it.

Did you even read my previous post? Perhaps I need to be a bit more direct, then.

As a gay guy who has been targeted by certain posters persistently outside of this forum with some pretty unsettling personal attacks I find those very same posters to be deeply disturbing and reprehensible individuals due to their past and - sometimes present - actions and harassment towards not only myself but various other individuals who have expressed criticism of Venat's actions...

I have very little interest in providing those individuals with sources other than linking them a video that contains the sources in question in a neat little package complete with handy chapters to find the relevant sections more readily. If those individuals do not wish to watch the video, then they are not obligated to. Though at the same time, I can only question why they would repeatedly attempt to lie about sources not being offered. Especially when it has been done in text form many times already. It may go without saying but everyone here is capable of looking through the older threads relating to the Sundering to see this all in play there, too, almost word for word. So...

To put it more bluntly, I am not interested in entertaining the whims of posters who:

• Have been deeply homophobic.
• Have insinuated outright that if someone likes the Ascians or the Garleans then they are secretly 'fascists'.
• Have declared that Midlander men are also fascist (I'd actually like an explanation for that one since it's so utterly bizarre.)
• Have whined about women who like Emet-Selch picking the 'bad guys' over 'nice guys'.
• Have made very hurtful sexist comments towards the aforementioned women.
• Have proclaimed that if someone dislikes Venat, then it's because they are 'sexist' and 'misogynistic'.
• Have joined various lore discussion Discords to demand that Venat and genocide are never used in the same sentence.
• Have repeatedly attempted to pretend as if those critical of Venat are all alts. A tactic that quickly fell out of favour when a greater number of posters became emboldened to speak out about not liking Endwalker's direction.
• Have created an entire alt account to push an offensive gimmick making fun of anyone who speaks English as a second language.

I could list many more things and those interested are encouraged to message me in-game and exchange Discord names on a throwaway account if need be because I have many interesting receipts to show exactly what sort of things certain posters have been saying and doing in recent years.

The only reason I weighed in on recent threads is precisely because I happened to see that the usual suspects were once again swarming someone who came to the conclusion that the mother goddess character so adored around these parts really isn't all that well written or consistent in her motives or morals.

Now, not all of the above is attributed to the same person but perhaps it will give some insight into why posting a video with sources is far more desirable then wasting time picking out specific, isolated sources for individuals who have a very long track record of some or all of the above behaviour. I would also note that in addition to the above there have been death and sexual assault threats hurled around as well. Nasty business, but again the evidence is there and can be passed along to those who, for whatever reason, may wish to see it with their own eyes.

In case it wasn't clear, I want nothing to do with certain regulars here. They're free to respond to my posts - I certainly can't stop them - but I felt obligated to explain myself a little more deeply. There's a number of posters here who are, quite frankly, extremely unsettling and I do not want to interact with them anymore than necessary. Which is why I so rarely post around these parts anymore - combined with the game as a whole being pretty dry on content in general these days and increasingly catered to the venue goer crowd over anyone who wants more 'world' and 'game' in their MMO.

Hopefully that provides some clarification. My intention with coming here has always been to discuss the game's story and the characters within it, not wage some strange war over whether someone's waifu is 'pure' and 'righteous' or not. The whole 'but you MUST agree that she was RIGHT' stuff is just weird and freaky to me. Not my scene.

Incidentally since I'm feeling nostalgic here's my post prior to the 'big reveal' as to what I was hoping for with the Hydaelyn and Zodiark story arc conclusion:

At this point, I'm very much expecting a third party entity to ultimately be to blame for the entire predicament. Potentially the very same entity that caused the Sound. The writers have, thankfully, been pretty clear at establishing the nuance of the situation. Neither Zodiark or Hydaelyn are necessarily 'good' or 'evil'. It's all very much a matter of perspective. So, too, does that apply to the Ancients and the Ascians, the Sundered and the Unsundered. They all have their own goals, dreams, desires and a will to live.

I also suspect that the Warrior of Light will go the way of Azem and seek to find a 'third way' when it comes to solving the plight that is the Sound. Especially if the Final Days are indeed returning for a second time in the same form as before. Or, alternatively, perhaps the story will involve Hydaelyn and Zodiark being brought together in a state of balance - given that the Sundering has been described as an 'unstable state' by the writers themselves in the past.

Whether Venat is an antagonist or not, I suppose, depends entirely on a few key factors such as whether the Sundering was accidental or intentional.

My own personal hope is for the story to set aside differences, acknowledge each side as having understandable motivations and then have everyone come together to beat the Sound which may or may not be a Lavos or Jenova type entity in typical JRPG fashion.

Obviously that isn't the trajectory that the story took but hopefully it helps dispel the ridiculous 'noooo u just wanted her to be evil' narrative that some like to peddle. I'm not willing to consider acts of genocide to suddenly be acceptable just because the story decides to do a complete one eighty in regards to its established morality and declare that they're bad and wrong when anyone other than the protagonists partake of such things but necessary when it benefits the self proclaimed heroes of the story.

More fool me for taking Yoshi-P at his word and believing that his love of the Ivalice games would translate into antagonists and protagonists alike being handled with more tact and dignity, I suppose. FFXVI didn't fare much better on that front.

We'll see what Dawntrail teases with the upcoming Fan Fest though so far I am inclined to believe that the game is firmly in the 'winding down' phase, at least temporarily. It's also becoming increasingly clear that the game is seeking to cater primarily to venue goers as opposed to authentic role-players or even anyone who wants the game to be more of an MMO and less of a slice of life adventure with low stakes for one of the most plot armour clad main casts in an MMO to date.

In the end, though, any MMO is by its very nature going to attract many different players from all over the world from very varied backgrounds, countries, cultures and belief systems. It strikes me as rather strange for anyone to act as if anything in a story 'has to' be liked, disliked or read into a certain way as if a bunch of writers prone to excessive use of protagonist centered morality, outright retcons and convenient plot devices such as memory wipes and time travel are owed full agreement.

Even the writers have never said as much themselves. They've always made it clear that they expect players to come to their own conclusions and embrace their personal tastes. Another thing repeatedly I linked in the past, I might add, particularly during the Shadowbringers era!

[Cleretic]

To put it more bluntly, I am not interesting in entertaining the selfish whims of posters who:

• Have been deeply homophobic.
• Have insinuated outright that if someone likes the Ascians or the Garleans then they are secretly 'fascists'.
• Have declared that Midlander men are also fascist (I'd actually like an explanation for that one since it's so utterly bizarre.)
• Have whined about women who like Emet-Selch picking the 'bad guys' over 'nice guys'.
• Have made very hurtful sexist comments towards the aforementioned women.
• Have proclaimed that if someone dislikes Venat, then it's because they are 'sexist' and 'misogynistic'.
• Have joined various lore discussion Discords to demand that Venat and genocide are never used in the same sentence.
• Have repeatedly attempted to pretend as if those critical of Venat are all alts. A tactic that quickly fell out of favour when a greater number of posters became emboldened to speak out about not liking Endwalker's direction.
• Have created an entire alt account to push an offensive gimmick making fun of anyone who speaks English as a second language.

See, now I'm starting to be a bit wary. Because there's only one person asking you to cite some sources here, and that's me. So it feels like this whole spiel is trying to blame me for things that have happened to you. And I sure hope it's not... especially because if you are, someone's slinging some serious slander, and it might not be anyone in this thread. I don't do any of that--and while I don't think minorities are incapable of attacking other minorities, I will say that as a trans woman who's not-infrequently attacked for both her gender identity and her opinions about fictional characters (occasionally from the same people), I'm far from a fan of that treatment for anyone. So if someone's claiming I'm doing it, I'm pretty mad about it.

I recognize and respect that this is what you consider reason to be more conservative about your arguments; you've seen that I think similar, although I hold back different things. But I am going to say--not as someone who wants Internet Arguments, but as someone who's been targeted like this--that I don't think this actually works like you want it to. If you're being attacked for your long opinion-posts about fictional characters, the existence of citations and quotes isn't actually a factor; it's the fact that you're making them in the first place. You're not making yourself a smaller target. So if you want my advice, despite never asking for it: go all or nothing. Because they do too.