What lore do you ignore?

[redheadturk]

If your claim is that the Ancient world beyond the parts we've been to doesn't have the exact same restrictions as the places we've been, then I'd like to see the proof.

I'd be an interesting way to look at things, because Elpis actually does seem to be written as if it's free-spirited and expressive as far as the Ancients go: it's full of creatives trying to follow both aesthetic and functional flair, it's got a number of people written as bucking the trends of the society--Hythlodaeus, Venat and even Athena in their own, very different ways--and they even have a rule that visitors have to remove the masks that are otherwise customary.

And yet every single one wears the exact same thing.

I love how you totally ignore my point that how people dress isn't the only form of self expression. How debate and discourse are other perfectly valid methods of self expression that can promote differences even better than clothing.

[Tehmon]

Wow, who would've thought this thread in particular would devolve into another '' Venat is a terrorist '' thread.

But for me, I generally ignore most race background specific things when it comes to my own WoL, mostly because I find most of that to be dreadfully dull and limiting. Whatever race I choose to play as I play purely for aesthetic sake, not because of the culture of the race.

[Vyrerus]

It's pretty common in every FFXIV storyline for the story to lean towards the whole, "Great Man Theory." It's always revolving around world leaders, heroes, and international/worldwide stakes. 1.0 has us deal with Louisoix who was a member of the Sharlayan forum, in addition to the city state leaders of Eorzea. 2.0 was the city state leaders again, along with an organization that places its right to do stuff above that of nations. 3.0 Ishgard's pope, and the leaders of its knight regiments. 4.0 Lord Hien, Ala Mhigan resistance leaders, Emperor Varis. 5.0 Crystal Exarch, Vauthry, Emperor Solus. 6.0 Satrap Vrtra, The entire Sharlayan Forum, Three members of the Convocation of 14 in Ancient times, an Ex-Convocation member, and an ex-Convocation Select.

It's part and parcel of this game's story to highlight exceptional people and put them in our path/by putting them in our path. Venat is no exception. It is completely in line with how XIV's world has always operated. Oh look, she can perceive Fate! She's so much better than everyone in her entire society that not only did she get to lead it, she got to ignore their customs completely with no repercussions or downsides (because ultimately the Ascians' society was a peaceful one that didn't eat people for their faults, but that's not how Venat's eschewal of their customs is framed).

It's less a story about individualism, and more a story about "The Greats." At every turn the bigotry of low expectations runs rampant with our protagonists (they do not believe in the common man). This was once mildly called out from ARR into HW for Alphinaud's character growth through the Lens of his Crystal Braves Debacle. But never really again since, and it still didn't highlight individuals that were less than nation leaders.

Even our own Ancient backstory for the WoL as Azem placed him as one of the Convocation of 14. We were only ever a person who pulled themselves up by their own merits once in this story, and that was apparently between the events of ARR's start and 3.0's Azys Lla segment (discounting the now literal super saiyan aura Hydaelyn gives us in Praetorium). Since then we have been considered the greatest great of the modern age.

In this way, the story of Endwalker and The Sundering and Venat is just a tale of the Greatest Woman Who Ever Lived, Hallowed be Her name. She altered the entire planet in an irrevocable way creating more moral conundrums than an Imperial Dreadnaught has cannons. Paving the way for someone to finally be greater than her, that someone being the WoL. However, we still have to be reminded at every turn that Venat's legacy is still great and responsible for ours.

It's kind of like Watchmen, but there's no one watching the Watchmen in this setting. Well, other than the audience, and the audience is largely sold on this setting's Ozymandias (Venat).

[Dikatis]

It's pretty common in every FFXIV storyline for the story to lean towards the whole, "Great Man Theory."

So you're complaining about named characters in positions of authority doing things of importance because of narrative conventions? Because that's what you're doing.

[Vyrerus]

So you're complaining about named characters in positions of authority doing things of importance because of narrative conventions? Because that's what you're doing.

So you're missing my point and making some sort of assertion against a strawman? Because that's what you're doing.

[Dikatis]

So you're missing my point and making some sort of assertion against a strawman? Because that's what you're doing.

I'm not. You complain about the common man not having enough to do and the story centering around a handful of characters because... yeah. That's how storytelling works. This isn't an in-depth political drama game. It's an action-adventure story. We're not going to examine socioeconomic factors in excruciating details because that's not the focus of the game and there needs to be characters capable of pushing the story forward lest we wind up in a board room wringing hands over every little action. So yeah, we're going to have heroes and leaders and people capable of enacting great change on their own. Because again, that's how high fantasy storytelling works.

So the idea that the named characters and leaders are competent, effective, and powerful is such a weird thing to complain about. And your narrative about "[the Scions] not believing in the common man" doesn't work when there's a lot of detail put into detailing the importance of the common man. Matsya saves the lines of dozens of refugees from Palaka's Stand and Vanaspati by reminding people of their faith and giving them succor in times of crisis. We need the people of Doman and even the sleepy village Namai to have a successful uprising against Yotsuyu. The support of people less important than city-state leaders is paramount to the plot. The alchemists of the Great Work develop the warding scales to enable common soldiers who are not blessed with the Echo and the Blessing of Light to fight primals and resist corruptive influences. The knights of Ishgard hold the other dragons at bay at the Final Steps of Faith while the Warrior of Light faces Nidhogg. The Eorzean Alliance fights the Garlean army while we take the fight to Zenos. The scientists of Labyrinthos are responsible for constructing a vessel capable of taking us to the end of creation to stop the Endsinger.

In your quest to villify the Scions as much as possible, you wind up making a milquetoast argument about characters actually being able to move the plot forward.

[Vyrerus]

I'm not.

You are. My point, which you missed wholeheartedly in your attempted, "Gotcha!" Is that we are not of common stock from places of little importance rising to be and do great things. We didn't come from nothing. Same as the Scions (well, not all of them, but the generalization stands).

In your condescending prattle about storytelling (I know how it works, thank you very much), you are forgetting stories quite commonly feature people who rise out of common households and circumstances. In fact, up until a few years ago, the WoL was kind of supposed to embody that.

Think about Lord of The Rings, considered by many to be the grandfather of most high fantasy. The Hobbits are literal nobodies, but they save the world under their own power in spite of their faults and foibles. Like sure, Bilbo and Frodo were both selected by Gandalf, who is actually a divine being, but it turns out he's like 3rd rung angel, more or less. Then all of the heroes in the setting that are tied to some form of royalty still need armies at their backs, full of the common men, in order to succeed and aid those Hobbits, those literal nobodies.

Your point about Matsya is good. That's actually one of my most favorite parts in Endwalker, but you've left out that he himself could not get that chance were it not for being saved by the Twins and then by Estinien and Vrtra.

Your point centered around the Alchemists of The Great Work? Not so much. Those are all the best alchemists in Thavnair, and they report directly to Vrtra. And the key ingredient in their innovation? Vrtra's scales, without which all of their alchemy alone is not enough.

In your next cavalcade of examples, only Lucia leading the knights on the Final Steps of Faith comes close to how you think this story plays out, and that's an echo of a time when the game's story was closer to what you describe.

The Eorzean Alliance in Ala Mhigo starts as a charge with every leader there in person to fight. None of them get wounded, and we see no uncommon valor or performance from regular soldiers. We get some help pushing in on the throne room, but other leaders and soldiers were trying to fight their way there too. But none of them even get to the colossi guarding the throne room doors (save Lord Hien's group which is visible through the main walkway barricade), and all the while we dealt with things they did not. The Magitek Scorpion and Aulus mal Asina.

The scientists in Labyrinthos are Forum sanctioned geniuses that are in no way common who get to directly commune with Hydaelyn.

You've misunderstood me. I'm not trying to vilify the Scions. I actually like most of them, even if I'm tired of their screen presence. I'm just trying to dispel the notion that this story is about individualism at its core, because it really isn't.

[Vyrerus]

Is it confirmed anywhere that disagreement over the third sacrifice caused an actual civil war and not just arguing?

I believe EE3 actually referred to the clash between Venat's faction and the Convocation's as such. There's 0 specifics on battles fought, where they were fought, how they were fought, or if it was literally all just, Venat consumes all of her faction and becomes Hydaelyn and then starts fighting Zodiark or not.

A few pages back Moose pulled a quote out of EE3 called, "The Schism." It ended with the line, "And then conflict erupted in earnest."

[Palladiamors]

If your claim is that the Ancient world beyond the parts we've been to doesn't have the exact same restrictions as the places we've been, then I'd like to see the proof.

I'd be an interesting way to look at things, because Elpis actually does seem to be written as if it's free-spirited and expressive as far as the Ancients go: it's full of creatives trying to follow both aesthetic and functional flair, it's got a number of people written as bucking the trends of the society--Hythlodaeus, Venat and even Athena in their own, very different ways--and they even have a rule that visitors have to remove the masks that are otherwise customary.

And yet every single one wears the exact same thing.

The rest of your post isn't you addressing my stance: it's you explaining yours. That's nice, but I'm not you.



You proved my first sentence so perfectly and directly, I'm actually impressed.

Thank you for this. It's nice to see someone talking common sense.

[SuperChris]

I'm going to start by ignoring this entire thread up to this point and doing what the thread title actually says.

First and foremost, I ignore what little lore there is surrounding the Nier raids. Besides simply not enjoying them - I know now to avoid playing the original game as well - the whole thing is an outside context problem that does very little do affect the world outside of disappearing a pair of dwarf twins.

I also ignore the lore that Exdeath was from a children's story that Nero heard as a kid - as far as I'm concerned, Sigmascape was as out of left field to them as Deltascape was.

I also ignore that they declared the Seventh Umbral Era over after ARR - 5 years does not a dark age make, and they still had a world war going on - none of them really lied to themselves and pretended that they had done more than win a battle, and that the war itself was still more or less raging.

The last one I can think of that I ignore, I ignore primarily because the writers have been quite inconsistent about it: the implication made in a few places that interracial relationships are considered taboo (most prominently with the NPCs who start the 'Not Easy Being Green' quest where they imply they were ostracized from their village not because they were gay, but because they were different races.)