What lore do you ignore?

[Lady_Silvermoon]

It's not really something I ignore, but I like to pretend that Venat addressed G'raha Tia specifically for the whole saving The First, us and a whole lot of other people on the source thing.

Why would she thank him? She gave the Warriors of Light crystals knowing what would happen to their world. Ardbert was right to try to put an axe through her head. As Varis would say, "IT WAS BY DESIGN?!"

[Cleretic]

Why would she thank him? She gave the Warriors of Light crystals knowing what would happen to their world. Ardbert was right to try to put an axe through her head. As Varis would say, "IT WAS BY DESIGN?!"

I can't speak for Landslide, but I'd presume that they'd want the scene for a bit of assurance of 'don't worry, there's a way to solve this and I'm on your side', possibly with some commiseration with having once been in a similar position. And possibly confirmation that Hydaelyn... y'know, is still alive at that point, which is still up in the air.

I don't really want this scene, because I think an important part of both Hydaelyn and the 8UC group is that they're not working from some predestined plan, but just working with what they have to try to make a better world, even if it's not one for them to live in. (Hydaelyn explicitly rejected sticking to the course of events we told her, because those events sucked, it's just that her options were limited.) But if what someone wants from that part of the story is aided by seeing it as 'god is on our side, even if nobody else is', they're welcome to see it like that.

Ardbert's immediately angry response is not universal--and I'd hope it wouldn't be, the man's a Warrior, having a short temper is literally his job. G'raha and the Ironworks are unlikely to respond in that way, especially because Ardbert was actually mad that she didn't talk to them at all until stepping in on our behalf, so to him she seemed both high-and-mighty and adversarial. To the 8UC crew, Hydaelyn's instead a known friendly entity that has stepped in in the past, so nothing to get mad at her about.

[RavLandslide]

Why would she thank him? She gave the Warriors of Light crystals knowing what would happen to their world. Ardbert was right to try to put an axe through her head. As Varis would say, "IT WAS BY DESIGN?!"

I don't really understand what that has to do with her thanking G'raha for what he did during Shadowbringers, but I'll try to clarify:

I should've maybe clarified that it's not while we meet Venat, but Hydaelyn. When we go to the Aetherial Sea together with the other Scions.

And my reason for why she'd thank him is because he basically saved the world. He did it together with the Sons of Saint Coinach and the Ironworks, of course, but those people weren't there when we met Hydaelyn. In a perfect story all the Scions would've been personally addressed for what they've done for the Star, but I think G'raha has really done the most considering how he travelled through time and space to prevent the 8th Umbral Calamity.

We don't know for sure if Hydaelyn would have "lost" if he hadn't done that, but we do know that she got a lot closer to "winning" by him doing it.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I don't really understand what that has to do with her thanking G'raha for what he did during Shadowbringers, but I'll try to clarify:

I should've maybe clarified that it's not while we meet Venat, but Hydaelyn. When we go to the Aetherial Sea together with the other Scions.

And my reason for why she'd thank him is because he basically saved the world. He did it together with the Sons of Saint Coinach and the Ironworks, of course, but those people weren't there when we met Hydaelyn. In a perfect story all the Scions would've been personally addressed for what they've done for the Star, but I think G'raha has really done the most considering how he travelled through time and space to prevent the 8th Umbral Calamity.

We don't know for sure if Hydaelyn would have "lost" if he hadn't done that, but we do know that she got a lot closer to "winning" by him doing it.

But he was predestined to do it. She set up the First to fall to light so that the WoL would die, so that the alternate timeline would figure out time travel, so that G'raha would come back to save the WoL, so that time travel is now available, so that the WoL can be sent back in time and tell her what she does so that she can do it. Thanking him would be like thanking a domino for falling over when pushed. Plus, I don't think she really cares about individuals. If she did she wouldn't have created seven worlds just to be smashed into the Source, not to mention what she allowed and/or instigated on the First and Thirteen.

So what would she be thanking him for? "Thank you for doing exactly what I set you up to do." If so, should she also thank the Ascians for destroying all the worlds she set them up to destroy right on schedule? Because literally everyone was unknowingly acting on her agenda. The WoL included.

[Iscah]

But he was predestined to do it.

You're blurring two things here: someone having knowledge of the future, and what causes people to act.

If there's some higher-level embodiment of Fate in this story's universe that drives people to act in a certain way, then Venat is as much a puppet as the rest. She is not the controller of fates and doesn't have influence over what other people will do; she's simply relying on the sequence of events in which things will happen as she has been told they will.

And if there is no driving force of fate, then there is only a world shaped moment-by-moment by the decisions of the people living in it, and those people are in control of their own path at the time they are taking it, no matter whether someone from the past has knowledge that they will do it in future, and no matter whether someone in the future knows that it happened in history.

G'raha did not somehow magically decide to save the world because Venat knew he would; he made that decision for himself, and Venat has learned about it as "future history". That is all.

[RavLandslide]

But he was predestined to do it. She set up the First to fall to light so that the WoL would die, so that the alternate timeline would figure out time travel, so that G'raha would come back to save the WoL, so that time travel is now available, so that the WoL can be sent back in time and tell her what she does so that she can do it. Thanking him would be like thanking a domino for falling over when pushed. Plus, I don't think she really cares about individuals. If she did she wouldn't have created seven worlds just to be smashed into the Source, not to mention what she allowed and/or instigated on the First and Thirteen.

So what would she be thanking him for? "Thank you for doing exactly what I set you up to do." If so, should she also thank the Ascians for destroying all the worlds she set them up to destroy right on schedule? Because literally everyone was unknowingly acting on her agenda. The WoL included.

I'm kind of late with my reaction, seeing how much debate this has sparked, but I still felt like I should reply.

I personally think you're giving Venat too much credit. She was a fighter and a friend, not a genius. She was the person who sundered the world on, what the cutscene made out to be, an impulse, with seemingly no further plans besides waiting for us to be born. She of course did know that we were going to be saved, but I don't think we told her every second of what we experienced/read/heard or that she was able to perfectly lay out a plan that would result in the Calamity being stopped. G'raha and his pals made a clever plan which Hydaelyn knew would happen, but did she, herself, personally make that happen? I personally do not think so.

[Aneshda]

After Endwalker? All

[Theodric]

We also know - as per the lore clarification Q&A released shortly after Endwalker - that Venat deliberately spared Emet-Selch and banked on him surviving as part of her plan. The Ascians were very much controlled opposition for Venat and she had prior knowledge as to what they would do in order to restore their loved ones.

Therefore, she is at least indirectly responsible for all of the blood upon their hands as well as the Ascians themselves being directly responsible.

If she was making a genuine effort to save the Ancients then she would never have withheld key information relating to the true cause behind the Final Days and she certainly would not have resorted to actively sabotaging their efforts to come up with solutions on their own.

Indeed, with every new scrap of information that is revealed it seems more and more likely that she always intended to resort to the Sundering and her feigned concerns towards the Ancients were simply a convenient excuse to get them out of the way through a cruel act of genocide complete with racial replacement and eugenics for good measure.

Unfortunately for the writers, not everybody falls for the 'bRAvE lItTlE SpArK' act because not everybody even self inserts into the story in the first place and even in cases where they do, their priority isn't necessarily seeking to imagine themselves working to please 'cRyStAl MoMmY'.

Which, I believe is a key point behind the disagreement. Some of us are discussing the story from the perspective in relation to how everything fits together and impacts the various characters and societies. Others are just flinging their hands up and automatically siding with the game's point of view characters and throwing anything and everything at the wall in order to come up with an excuse as to why the Ancients 'needed' to be wiped out. Sometimes as something to be cheered on, other times as a 'grim necessity'. Failing that, you then have certain posters who will fully imagine the Rejoinings as an act of genocide but pretend as if they don't see the equivalent, through the Sundering, as being the same thing. Convenient, that!

The funny - and rather sad - thing is that if Venat were actually properly criticised and held accountable for her actions then she'd be a lot more popular amongst those who take issue with her. Instead by having all her brutality hand waved and dismissed it just led to many an eye roll instead.

The game is exceedingly preachy at times and a lot of people stomached that on the basis of hoping for some consistency. Instead we get a story that ends up trying to pretend as if the character responsible for a horrific act of genocide 'tried her best' even as she sabotaged, lied to and betrayed her own people.

It doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Still, with any luck the story will handle its characters with more dignity across the board moving forward. It certainly seems to be eager to embrace something of lesser stakes as of the upcoming expansion.

[Cleretic]

If she was making a genuine effort to save the Ancients then she would never have withheld key information relating to the true cause behind the Final Days and she certainly would not have resorted to actively sabotaging their efforts to come up with solutions on their own.

No.

She explains this, directly, after Ktisis.

Forename, listen to me. Our duty now is not to denounce Hermes for his misguided determination, or to convince Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus that they have been deceived.

No, we must instead ensure that the experiences Hermes sought to expunge are preserved.

What remains in our memories alone will be our weapon against the Final Days.

You must fight this battle in your age, and I in mine...
Come, let us walk together once more. I will see you to the doors of Propylaion.

[...]

With Meteion free to pursue her designs, 'tis only a matter of time until the Final Days are upon us.

We must be ready. From fortifying our defenses to securing our escape, there is much to be done.

In spite of this, we cannot allow the report that set this calamity in motion to become common knowledge. Were the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control.

I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe.

Alternately, we might try to alienate him from the Convocation. Yet in doing so, we would deprive ourselves of a brilliant mind who would be invaluable in the crises to come.

Quite the dilemma... Which is why I must work independently of the Convocation.

Regardless of how we proceed, if we are to permanently avert the Final Days, we must be equal to Hermes's challenge. We must prove that mankind is worthy to exist.

And this hinges, I think, on how we confront the all-consuming despair that accompanies a senseless and seemingly inevitable end.

Bewildered and divided, we would perish like the peoples of those celestial ruins.

We could not hope to survive the Final Days, much less take the battle to Meteion at her nest.

We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead.

Heavy will weigh the burden of guiding this legion of souls...

Yet I have faith in mankind's potential. As long as he believes in himself, there is naught he cannot achieve. So I will not give up on him. On us.

You may find your world to be very different. Or perhaps the erasure of our friends' memories has sown the seeds of a conjunction between us.

We cannot know until the moment is at hand. So shall I strive to do my best, taking naught for granted as I walk my path.

Far from 'sabotaging' any effort to deal with the Final Days, she specifically went out of her way to get out of their way.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

No.

She explains this, directly, after Ktisis.



Far from 'sabotaging' any effort to deal with the Final Days, she specifically went out of her way to get out of their way.

She says this as she's shuffling off the one person with knowledge of the future and thus the ability to alter events back to their own time. Then she proceeds to not make a single verifiable attempt to change the future and several known acts to ensure things went down the way you told her.

Her words at face value make you think she's preparing to fight Meteion, but when you look at her actions you realize her words were just to placate the WoL and get them out of the way so she could go do her genocide without her pesky little champion warning anyone else. This is the 40th half-truth she's thrown our way. Just like all the other half-truths she's told us on our journey.

We even offer to stay and help. Wonder why she didn't accept...

*snip*

By time loop, I mean she enacts what is required to ensure she becomes a god and the reigning beings on the planet and their environment are shaped by her hand. You know, what Athena wanted to do, but somehow good for some reason when Venat does it. You can assure me til the cows come home that parallel timelines exist when it's time to save the WoL but we're locked in a loop, helpless to save the Ancients all you want, but I'm gonna need an explanation as to why that would be true. And let's say it is, no matter what we do or try Venat exterminates her people. Then why aren't we screaming from the rafters mommy goddess is about to kill the lot of them since nothing we do can change the past anyway? It's because we could change the past, but we are actively choosing to keep our mouth shut cause we need Azem dead for parts.

And given we've already observed G'raha change the future without ending his existence, the fact we're not even trying is unforgivable. G'raha knew there was a chance he'd wipe himself from existence, but he tried anyway, because it was the right thing to do. But in Endwalker I guess the right thing to do is to hang out with a child that idolizes you and do literally nothing to attempt to stop him from a fate worse than death.

ETA: It just hit me that had we kept our mouths shut in the first place we wouldn't have given mommy goddess the necessary steps to eradicate her people. So we open our mouths to cause genocide, but we're suddenly able to keep our mouths shut when it comes to preventing it? How convenient...