Paladin needs to be overhauled

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

You think this is a smart or healthy model for success of a job let alone PVP in general to balance a skillset on select few rather than the general/casual player base? but yet you'll use average player for upcoming arguments

Ok so we should balance the game around crayon-eaters then and see what happens in the top ranks?

It's called trickle down balancing. They did balance Warrior initially for the bottom skill tiers by completely messing up Bloodwhetting so bad that playing it was actually detrimental. They reverted it after they stopped listening to knee-jerk reactions.

Skilled players know how to break your game if you give them the tools and likely have a better idea about problems in job kits.

Also I am not sure what arguments past this point I use average players as the basis, but feel free to point it out.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Despite PLD being able to solo kill or 1v1 prior to 6.1 with cover included, this is an a strange response but again not gonna push into 1v1 too much

You are not remembering right.

Cover existed before 5.1 and was replaced with Intervention between 5.1 and 6.1, with 6.1 it being replaced by Guardian.

The reason you were able to solo kill was because healing prior to 5.1 was basically limited to long CD additional actions or job specific actions. After 5.1 you had Vanguard + Rearguard potions, which later got fused into Medical Kit (aka Vanguard Potion). Damage numbers of individual jobs also got balanced around a rather medium time to kill and were focused on The Feast's team bursting strategy.

Sorry but the way you make me post made me reach my daily limit, so I'mma have to edit this post.

theres a bit to unpack here
1 teammates still had pots before 6.1 plus bloodbath for melee
2 cover has great mobility with guard (even tho this skill by its nature is a liability for mobility) but cover + HG isnt great because of........reasons?
3 youre "duking it out" regardless i dont know wut this point was even for
4 im pretty sure the debuff was removed in between or before shb patches not sure why this was brought up

1.) Correct. They had no Purify though to deal with your stun which you wanted to use during Blood Bath to cripple their sustain.
2.) You didn't "need" the mobility given that (at least in Feast) the arena was relatively small and you were constantly engaged. Also you couldn't "safely" Cover someone without a defensive just as before, Hallowed had a longer CD than Guard now. The main difference is you don't get to attack during Guard. I never said it wasn't great.
3.) Small arena, objective is the enemy player directly, meaning either you are glued to them or they are glued to you.
4.) You brought up patches with Cover prior to 6.1, which was when Heavy Medals were a thing (i.e. pre.5.1) and using Cover, while obviously possible, had some risk if you had 175-200 medals.

Paladin had enough mitigation / sustain to handle 1v1s in the 5.1 ShB period on top of his stun, which noone could Purify at the time except Healers. Prior to 5.1, you also had access to Shield Oath on top of Clemency and Holy Spirit while noone realistically had a lot of healing beyond a 30/45s(?) cooldown on Recuperate.

You think thats healthy for the Job let alone the player, to have the job designed around this function?

Am I thinking it is healthy that you can get chain stunned? No. I think Fetter Ward should become a global action and every type of CC should have a resist period just like before. Do I think it is IDEAL that a bunch of idiots hit all their stuns on you while you Phalanx and invuln it? Yes and I am tired of people like you pretending this to be a bad thing when it is literally the single-best scenario of enemy CC getting wasted, your own input be damned.

also using purify during a chain stunn why didnt i think of that i bet theres no myriad of scenarios or issues or skills that prevent purify prior to or during this scenario , thanks for this advice it never occurred to me, also i can tell you not many are as thankful as youre pretending it to be this is PVP we're talking about

Oh please spare me your sarcasm, you know exactly what I meant by this.

I dont know what gentlemenly matches youve been in but they are far out numbered by the reality of the response that is met when you die from a chain stun after LB was wasted or cover[/QUOTE]
If we are still talking about Crystalline conflict - I don't get chain stunned because I am not insane enough to dive in without Guard and Purify ready to save someone, especially when the enemy has a WHM and/or a Bard.

If this is Frontlines - I give you this, fair point, this mode badly needs CC resist though or return to 8v8v8 which they removed after 5.1.

[RyanCousland]

You are not remembering right.

Cover existed before 5.1 and was replaced with Intervention between 5.1 and 6.1, with 6.1 it being replaced by Guardian.

The reason you were able to solo kill was because healing prior to 5.1 was basically limited to long CD additional actions or job specific actions. After 5.1 you had Vanguard + Rearguard potions, which later got fused into Medical Kit (aka Vanguard Potion). Damage numbers of individual jobs also got balanced around a rather medium time to kill and were focused on The Feast's team bursting strategy.

Paladin had enough mitigation / sustain to handle 1v1s in the 5.1 ShB period on top of his stun, which noone could Purify at the time except Healers. Prior to 5.1, you also had access to Shield Oath on top of Clemency and Holy Spirit while noone realistically had a lot of healing beyond a 30/45s(?) cooldown on Recuperate.

I wasnt referencing after 5.1 the point again is a compare and contrast which you've just illustrated my point better and i thank you for it

[RyanCousland]

If you end up continuing this conversation the ill hold off after this because there seems to be a conflation subjects going on regarding cover

1 when i say PLD had cover in 1v1 setting both current and in 5.1 or pre what i referring to is the ability to kill which it no longer can i bring this up because everyone says PLD shouldnt be able to kill even tho it could with a skill that was unusable in its toolkit

2 regarding the heavy medal debuff mobility issue vs guard the differnce being as you point out the immobilization as well as other issues with the current guard + cover
to me cover even with the medal debuff was a better trade off

[Nanne]

PvP is mostly balanced around CC and PLD is in a good spot there. They cannot start balancing around 1v1 and the fact that you might not get perfect teammates in PvP

[RyanCousland]

PvP is mostly balanced around CC and PLD is in a good spot there. They cannot start balancing around 1v1 and the fact that you might not get perfect teammates in PvP

Is this statement reliant upon the previous posters or is there something new to add or different perspective? Also I find the last part as well as those that share this sentiment, odd considering that people wish to maintain PLD as a support class/role and what exactly does support need I wonder?

[Nikoto]

My man, you can put multiple points into a single post.

[Gserpent]

Is this statement reliant upon the previous posters or is there something new to add or different perspective? Also I find the last part as well as those that share this sentiment, odd considering that people wish to maintain PLD as a support class/role and what exactly does support need I wonder?

PLD is one of the best support classes in the game. 3 sec stun is phenomenal for securing kills on people that have spent Purify (and it's half the cooldown of Purify too), 2 dashes plus a dash built into Guardian gives them excellent mobility, the have the best defense button in the game, and Sacred Claim is very good team support. And like most 120 sec LBs, their LB is an absolute game-changer. It's a very bad idea to fight into PLD LB unless your team already had a serious advantage to start with, in most cases you *must* disengage and try to wait it out.

PLD does not need anything new or different. Their kit is fantastic the way it is. I guess you could give them a little bit of extra potency or something? It wouldn't make much of a difference though.

[RyanCousland]

PLD is one of the best support classes in the game. 3 sec stun is phenomenal for securing kills on people that have spent Purify (and it's half the cooldown of Purify too), 2 dashes plus a dash built into Guardian gives them excellent mobility, the have the best defense button in the game, and Sacred Claim is very good team support. And like most 120 sec LBs, their LB is an absolute game-changer. It's a very bad idea to fight into PLD LB unless your team already had a serious advantage to start with, in most cases you *must* disengage and try to wait it out.

PLD does not need anything new or different. Their kit is fantastic the way it is. I guess you could give them a little bit of extra potency or something? It wouldn't make much of a difference though.

my question was sarcastic, which i should've done a better job at but ill expand further if youre saying PLD is the best support then it, what does a support role need in a team based PVP? the answer a good team to utilize that support, however this is not the case as explained in the thread. I get it i truly do in perfect play PLD is amazing no question hell if we had pre made v pre made CC i wouldnt be on this thread but neither of these is the case, majority of matches PLD support is wasted, as for your stun comment it by no means is anything to praise NIN has a better stun for team utility than PLD, MNK & WAR also have a quick CD for stun. The guardian skill has already been discussed in great length, I honestly think people romanticize this class way too much and only look at it on paper, the kit has alot that can be changed or added for better utility, potency maybe but that seems like a weak/lazy solution.

As for FL or 1v1 i'll not make a case

[Valence]

i think this is another example of perfect play mentality, what you illustrate requires a team effort/coordination which pvp does not have in terms of the majority of matches that is experienced both for CC and FL

Don't play coy, I actually also hate when people use the perfect play argument without taking into account the actual effort balance behind.

I'm saying that if a target is dropping low and tries to run away, it's a prime target for a stun, because odds are your team is pummeling them pretty hard right now. It doesn't even need coordination, the coordination comes from YOUR end, which is identifying such targets and punishing them for overcommitting by preventing them to escape and securing kills.

Confeti is in no way a better substitute for Holy circle, youre smart enough to asses and realize poly but not enough for other issues or scenarios in which purify isnt usable?

Which are what...? RPR and DNC LB?

And what does Confiteor have to do with purify?