Paladin needs to be overhauled

[RyanCousland]

You were always a tank that excelled at defensives, but unlike the other three tanks your defense changed. Pre-5.1 you had Cover, which got nerfed on multiple instances, was the reason why Paladins even took increased damage when attacked directly for using it and also why it had less max HP than other tanks. Post-5.1 you had Intervention, which was high value with less self-risk but you had to pre-emptively mitigate, which was what set apart a good Paladin from a decent one.

cover was better back then also because of the healing of holy circle or as i said before HG whereas today you have no aoe except confeti to balance a multi assault i could go on about it but it seems you know already

[RyanCousland]

To your suggestion - putting Stun on Intervene as they originally intended would make Paladin a lot more powerful than it already is in higher ranks and definitely good in lower ranks, even when Shield Bash is gone. That is a 10s CD on a stun of which you can hold 2. That's kinda broken.
I can see why you want Holy Spirit back, but I genuinely don't see it doing more than 8000 dmg unless there are some conditionals such as Sacred Claim damage bonus.

so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current

[Valence]

so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current

Shieldbash's pro compared to Primal Rend is that one is instant, the other one has an insane animation delay and is also used for WAR's primary damage output. Shieldbash performs a lot better at securing kills, while Primal Rend is better at applying team pressure. They're not used exactly identically, and both shine at different things. I could see how one would see shieldbash as inferior if they're not using it to specifically hit targets out of resources in the shins when it will make them dead with a 99% probability.

[RyanCousland]

While it is true that Paladin does not exactly do Dark Knight or Gunbreaker levels of damage, Paladin qualifies in other areas that the other tanks may lack.
1.) It has access to an OGCD stun on a short CD. Unlike WAR and GNB, your main damage is not tied to using it and unlike WAR, it has no animation lock and doesn't resposition you
2.) It has the most readily available and arguably strongest self defense in Holy Sheltron (%-mitigation is very strong) without restriction to a conditional buff (GNB Nebula)
3.) Cover alone makes this fair.
Additionally, none of those numbers actually highlight whether a tank focuses on sustained damage (Paladin, Dark Knight, GNB-Tank/Heal) or burst damage (Warrior, Dark Knight-ish, GNB-DPS) nor do they take into account if their effects help the whole team (Onslaught, Plunge). For reference, here is a burst of each tank (2 GCDs max):

PLD - Confiteor (8000) -> Intervene (2000) + Shield Bash (4000) -> Atonement (8000) -> Intervene (2000)
WAR - Primal Rend (8000-8800) -> Orogeny (10000-11000) -> Chaotic Cyclone (8000-8800) [add +5000 dmg depending on if and where Onslaught is placed]
DRK - Plunge (2000) + Shadowbringer (6000) -> Bloodspiller (6000-7600) -> Shadowbringer (6000) -> Bloodspiller (7600-9400)
GNB - Rough Divide (2000) -> Double Down (14400) -> Burststrike + Hypervelocity (12000) [add +12000 Blasting Zone and +2400 on Hypervelocity if DPS Junction]
Burst results:
PLD - 24000
WAR - 26000 without Onslaught, 31000-33600 with and depending on placement.
DRK - 27600 with Dark Arts: Shadowbringer (0HP spent), 31000-ish without
GNB - 28400 without DPS Junction, 42800 with DPS junction

These are the bursts, however the damage potential varies a lot on conditionals. Paladin can extend the multitude of 8000 dmg Atonements over a fair bit of time and has relatively high access to it while Warrior does minimal damage via combo outside of the burst. Dark Knight actually has more potential in sustained damage through multiple instances of Shadowbringer and cycling HP, while GNB damage potential can extend at the risk of overusing Rough Divide (which also serves as HEAL +20% for defensive purposes).

Conclusion - Paladin has very little room for a damage buff given their damage consistency over burst, mitigation and stun access.

I do appreciate the time and effort put forth in this expansion on damage however it does further illustrates my point in PLD being weaker granted i dont care if it is as i said before even in shb it was still pretty weak if remember correctly it was 3rd out of the tanks, being above WAR but despite this it had better utility and sustainability and bottom line it was fun
it has room for damage give intervene the stun effect and replace shield bash with 2 holy spirit and that would be 10x better than what it is now

[Valence]

I'll preface my issues with a disclosure that ive been pvp paladin main since shadowbringers and during that time was the best for PLD because of its use in providing cover or intervention as well as its aoe abilities, while I understand that the new changes caused for minimizing all jobs skills , this chang has drastically had an adverse affect on PLD.

To start the guardian skill has an animation lock which basically defeats the purpose and yet somehow puts the skill on cooldown, to further explain when an ally is below half their health and within reach of the skill and you activate it, guardian does not take affect till after the animation during that animation period your teammate is more than likely dead and guardian is on cooldown making it useless, also a majority of players dont seem to understand its effect because anytime i use it when its needed they run away.

Second PLD limit break takes way too long for what its worth and is easliy countered with chain stun or other LBs and still is the weakest

Third PLD does the least amount of damage out of the "Tanks" which has an adverse affect on its supposed healing potency & sustainability which is less than the others, if your doing less damage than your opponent then the healing factor is useless.

Total damage without LB based on 1 use per skill
PLD Total Damage: 46,000
GNB Total Damage: 60,000
DRK Total Damage: 52,000
WAR Total Damage: idc about WAR but its probably higher than PLD

Prior to 6.1 I was able to solo kill with pld skillset, now pld is running around with a butterknife and no magic

if this finds its way to whoever is in charge please fix these issues, id offer my solutions but getting these acknowledged is first.

Are you kidding? The LB of PLD in pvp is one of the strongest, game changing, table turning LBs of all. It takes time to charge because it's that monstrous. Not only it makes you invulnerable for 10s, but also allows you to make somebody else invulnerable as well, and gives an absolutely massive damage mitigation of 50%, which essentially will negate any kind of AoE LB the enemy team will pull. On top of it it still grants you a decent series of self healing AoEs, which can apply some decent pressure and heal you back from the grave if you used the LB at low health as well...

This is not a damage LB, and the job is the least impressive damage dealer in the game (although you can pull very respectable numbers on the damage tally tbh), because everything is literally focused on defense and party support. If you're looking for more damage and offense, other tanks are more tuned toward this than PLD...

On the animation delay, and this is not me actually defending them, they're an eyesore, but PLD is far from the only job suffering from this, but I do agree that it's especially egregious on guardian, however like Guard and whatnot, you have to be a little proactive with them, and not just rush at the last moment. If an ally drops that fast, maybe it's not your fault as well. You can't always save everybody.

[RyanCousland]

Are you kidding? The LB of PLD in pvp is one of the strongest, game changing, table turning LBs of all. It takes time to charge because it's that monstrous. Not only it makes you invulnerable for 10s, but also allows you to make somebody else invulnerable as well, and gives an absolutely massive damage mitigation of 50%, which essentially will negate any kind of AoE LB the enemy team will pull. On top of it it still grants you a decent series of self healing AoEs, which can apply some decent pressure and heal you back from the grave if you used the LB at low health as well...

I recommend reading my response to the other person who posted the same reaction, because its one i hear constantly and yet when i respond with the issue of chain and othe LB cancellation ive yet to hear a rebuttal, its always the same but if in the event you decide not view it ill repeat what good does covering someone who runs? what good is the healing if your chain stunned or under the affect of another LB?

[Valence]

I recommend reading my response to the other person who posted the same reaction, because its one i hear constantly and yet when i respond with the issue of chain and othe LB cancellation ive yet to hear a rebuttal, its always the same but if in the event you decide not view it ill repeat what good does covering someone who runs? what good is the healing if your chain stunned or under the affect of another LB?

PLD is like a lot of support jobs in pvp. If your team mates suck, it's on them, not on you nor on the power of the ability. At least PLD is invulnerable during the LB, unlike other jobs like DNC, SGE, SMN, BLM etc. On the opposite of those, you cannot shut down a PLD under Phalanx.

If you get chain stunned after your invuln, use Purify? Keep it ready before using the LB if possible. You know how purify works when it cleanses a debuff right? (and if you're referring to polymorph, then yeah, that ability can go to hell, but it's not just a PLD issue either)

there seems to be a common misapprehension that i want PLD to do more damage despite saying i played it in shb where it was considered pretty weak in dps, what im saying is theres too many cons vs the pros of PLD and yes that goes for its LB too

PLD was actually one of the best if not the best AoE tank in ShB. I should know, I kept having the best damage tallies in feast up to diamond. Confiteor was just that good for it.

[RyanCousland]

If you get chain stunned after your invuln, use Purify? Keep it ready before using the LB if possible. You know how purify works when it cleanses a debuff right? (and if you're referring to polymorph, then yeah, that ability can go to hell, but it's not just a PLD issue either)
PLD was actually one of the best if not the best AoE tank in ShB. I should know, I kept having the best damage tallies in feast up to diamond. Confiteor was just that good for it.

Confeti is in no way a better substitute for Holy circle, youre smart enough to asses and realize poly but not enough for other issues or scenarios in which purify isnt usable?

[RyanCousland]

This is not a damage LB, and the job is the least impressive damage dealer in the game (although you can pull very respectable numbers on the damage tally tbh), because everything is literally focused on defense and party support. If you're looking for more damage and offense, other tanks are more tuned toward this than PLD...

there seems to be a common misapprehension that i want PLD to do more damage despite saying i played it in shb where it was considered pretty weak in dps, what im saying is theres too many cons vs the pros of PLD and yes that goes for its LB too

[Jettinson]

I don't get the LB complain? So what if you are stunned? You are giving your party a Tank LB worth of defense buff, add covering a partner so both PLD and the other are not taking damage, also able to make them pop a potion without being interrupted too.

Oh yeah it also has a 3 GCD combo with the same effect of Confiteor which means you can tag the enemy party and your team will be able to heal off.
It is damn powerful and even if you can't play PLD, the invulnerability itself is already strong enough for stalling