Paladin needs to be overhauled

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Despite PLD being able to solo kill or 1v1 prior to 6.1 with cover included, this is an a strange response but again not gonna push into 1v1 too much

You are not remembering right.

Cover existed before 5.1 and was replaced with Intervention between 5.1 and 6.1, with 6.1 it being replaced by Guardian.

The reason you were able to solo kill was because healing prior to 5.1 was basically limited to long CD additional actions or job specific actions. After 5.1 you had Vanguard + Rearguard potions, which later got fused into Medical Kit (aka Vanguard Potion). Damage numbers of individual jobs also got balanced around a rather medium time to kill and were focused on The Feast's team bursting strategy.

Sorry but the way you make me post made me reach my daily limit, so I'mma have to edit this post.

theres a bit to unpack here
1 teammates still had pots before 6.1 plus bloodbath for melee
2 cover has great mobility with guard (even tho this skill by its nature is a liability for mobility) but cover + HG isnt great because of........reasons?
3 youre "duking it out" regardless i dont know wut this point was even for
4 im pretty sure the debuff was removed in between or before shb patches not sure why this was brought up

1.) Correct. They had no Purify though to deal with your stun which you wanted to use during Blood Bath to cripple their sustain.
2.) You didn't "need" the mobility given that (at least in Feast) the arena was relatively small and you were constantly engaged. Also you couldn't "safely" Cover someone without a defensive just as before, Hallowed had a longer CD than Guard now. The main difference is you don't get to attack during Guard. I never said it wasn't great.
3.) Small arena, objective is the enemy player directly, meaning either you are glued to them or they are glued to you.
4.) You brought up patches with Cover prior to 6.1, which was when Heavy Medals were a thing (i.e. pre.5.1) and using Cover, while obviously possible, had some risk if you had 175-200 medals.

Paladin had enough mitigation / sustain to handle 1v1s in the 5.1 ShB period on top of his stun, which noone could Purify at the time except Healers. Prior to 5.1, you also had access to Shield Oath on top of Clemency and Holy Spirit while noone realistically had a lot of healing beyond a 30/45s(?) cooldown on Recuperate.

You think thats healthy for the Job let alone the player, to have the job designed around this function?

Am I thinking it is healthy that you can get chain stunned? No. I think Fetter Ward should become a global action and every type of CC should have a resist period just like before. Do I think it is IDEAL that a bunch of idiots hit all their stuns on you while you Phalanx and invuln it? Yes and I am tired of people like you pretending this to be a bad thing when it is literally the single-best scenario of enemy CC getting wasted, your own input be damned.

also using purify during a chain stunn why didnt i think of that i bet theres no myriad of scenarios or issues or skills that prevent purify prior to or during this scenario , thanks for this advice it never occurred to me, also i can tell you not many are as thankful as youre pretending it to be this is PVP we're talking about

Oh please spare me your sarcasm, you know exactly what I meant by this.

I dont know what gentlemenly matches youve been in but they are far out numbered by the reality of the response that is met when you die from a chain stun after LB was wasted or cover[/QUOTE]
If we are still talking about Crystalline conflict - I don't get chain stunned because I am not insane enough to dive in without Guard and Purify ready to save someone, especially when the enemy has a WHM and/or a Bard.

If this is Frontlines - I give you this, fair point, this mode badly needs CC resist though or return to 8v8v8 which they removed after 5.1.

[RyanCousland]

Hallowed also had +30s/+60s(pre-buff) the cooldown of Guard, Cover had a +20% dmg taken if they attacked you directly and there was no Elixir your teammate could make use of in the cover time. Also your own life tended to be relatively important as a medal carrier, particularly when Heavy Medal debuff was still around. You also were constantly duking it out as the objective were the players themselves in rather small arenas, so the mobility wasn't as great as you'd try to tell me.

theres a bit to unpack here
1 teammates still had pots before 6.1 plus bloodbath for melee
2 cover has great mobility with guard (even tho this skill by its nature is a liability for mobility) but cover + HG isnt great because of........reasons?
3 youre "duking it out" regardless i dont know wut this point was even for
4 im pretty sure the debuff was removed in between or before shb patches not sure why this was brought up

[RyanCousland]

"Gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb" - ...what? Your job design with Cover in it literally is using your own life to protect another. If you get chain stunned from Covering a teammate, you saved a teammate and wasted a team a ton of stuns. You could also use Purify along with it so you WOULDN'T get chain stunned. And if you get stunned without Cover during Phalanx... then I am sorry, but you baiting those stuns is like the greatest W a tank in any game could hope for. Do you have any idea how many people might be thankful that they hit you and not them?

You think thats healthy for the Job let alone the player, to have the job designed around this function? also using purify during a chain stunn why didnt i think of that i bet theres no myriad of scenarios or issues or skills that prevent purify prior to or during this scenario , thanks for this advice it never occurred to me, also i can tell you not many are as thankful as youre pretending it to be this is PVP we're talking about i dont know what gentlemenly matches youve been in but they are far out numbered by the reality of the response that is met when you die from a chain stun after LB was wasted or cover

[RyanCousland]

I fail to see the point of this addition. You essentially only just moved Shield Bash onto Intervene to make "space" for Holy Spirit and giving it Shield Bash's cooldown. That is just making your stun more predictable and less flexible when you want to be mobile but keep your stun.

Guardian has great mobility because it can gap close 20y for support but intervene with a stun function added and gap closing for offensive purposes is not flexible or predictable despite intervene + shield bash being relatively usable combo

[RyanCousland]

Like I'm sorry if I am on a huge disagreement with you, but what I am understanding is you are either wanting Paladin to do more than it should or your view on how good Paladin's kit is skewed because your teammates genuinely drag you down. I mentioned this earlier and it is really not meant with malice - consider dropping Paladin for another job if you can't enjoy for what it is worth.

You can enjoy/love a job but still criticize it, the whole thesis is based on the compare and contrast in the 1st post its not a matter of saying PLD cant do more (which it can) or disregarding teammates skillset as you seem to often do. I sincerely recommend you play PLD more because my suspicion is you dont as much as you let on, dont be sorry in fact your disagreements are admirable even tho theyre antithetical to my own

[Curisu]

Once I accidentally queued in as PLD for CC.
Use the little time at the beginning to putt skills in my hotbar and read them while moving.

I hard stomped and carried that run.
No one was able to kill me while I was chasing down 2, 3 enemy's and dashed back to support my team.

I could not score many kills but my team was alive and could finish them on.
Was surprised about how good PLD is and understood now why it is so annoying to play against one.
Queued in a few more time as it and won the games easily.

PLD is fun to play and far from weak in low-mid rankings.

[RyanCousland]

Once I accidentally queued in as PLD for CC.
Use the little time at the beginning to putt skills in my hotbar and read them while moving.

I hard stomped and carried that run.
No one was able to kill me while I was chasing down 2, 3 enemy's and dashed back to support my team.

I could not score many kills but my team was alive and could finish them on.
Was surprised about how good PLD is and understood now why it is so annoying to play against one.
Queued in a few more time as it and won the games easily.

PLD is fun to play and far from weak in low-mid rankings.

Was this before or after you rescued a basket of kittens from a burning building?.......I joke, while i might be open minded into possibly believing your story im extremely skeptical but either congrats I think

[Cheremia]

I have a big fat crush on all good plds in cc, i was saved so often by cover.
Many good plds use some sort if cover-macro so the covered person is aware of it.

The stun is incredibly annoying to go against, but plds using it in an 1o1 is kinda stupid.
Most stuns are supposed to help your teammates

The lb can turn tides so hard in a lockout situation because guess what?
Stunning you is wasting their cc and 10 seconds for your people to come back + guard time is an incredible amount of time to regroup while the pld is annoying as hell and eats enemy rescourced.

Damage does not matter that much for pld and i have seen many plds just finish off enemies as help. Assists count too

I love good plds so much, please hold my hand while you annoy the enemy team, please

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I have a big fat crush on all good plds in cc, i was saved so often by cover.
Many good plds use some sort if cover-macro so the covered person is aware of it.

The stun is incredibly annoying to go against, but plds using it in an 1o1 is kinda stupid.
Most stuns are supposed to help your teammates

The lb can turn tides so hard in a lockout situation because guess what?
Stunning you is wasting their cc and 10 seconds for your people to come back + guard time is an incredible amount of time to regroup while the pld is annoying as hell and eats enemy rescourced.

Damage does not matter that much for pld and i have seen many plds just finish off enemies as help. Assists count too

I love good plds so much, please hold my hand while you annoy the enemy team, please

100% this. As an avid DRK player, Paladins have supported my playstyle tremendously. Confiteor gives me a third of my HP cost back, Cover lets me bail or Elixir after engaging aggressively and Shield Bash makes up for my lack of stun.

Let alone Phalanx which turned seemingly lost engagements into a massive chance.

Stay strong PLD chads.

[RyanCousland]

I have a big fat crush on all good plds in cc, i was saved so often by cover.
Many good plds use some sort if cover-macro so the covered person is aware of it.

The stun is incredibly annoying to go against, but plds using it in an 1o1 is kinda stupid.
Most stuns are supposed to help your teammates

The lb can turn tides so hard in a lockout situation because guess what?
Stunning you is wasting their cc and 10 seconds for your people to come back + guard time is an incredible amount of time to regroup while the pld is annoying as hell and eats enemy rescourced.

Damage does not matter that much for pld and i have seen many plds just finish off enemies as help. Assists count too

I love good plds so much, please hold my hand while you annoy the enemy team, please

Im glad you appreciate PLD but to say it should remain this way because a handful of players recognize its utility let alone optimize the openings that PLD give is to me beyond selfish for class that you dont play

prior to 6.1 stun was a deciding factor for PLD to achieve a kill also if youre implying that current PLD is capable of 1v1 then i think youve missed the entire thread
Stuning a PLD LB removes the dps (check thread regarding my stance on dps) and healing factor in the hopes that the team is able to use that chance to turn the tides, now i agree when this happens its glorious but again you as well as the handful of people that reply are framing this in perfect play which is not the majority