Paladin needs to be overhauled

[RyanCousland]

I don't get the LB complain? So what if you are stunned? You are giving your party a Tank LB worth of defense buff, add covering a partner so both PLD and the other are not taking damage, also able to make them pop a potion without being interrupted too.

Oh yeah it also has a 3 GCD combo with the same effect of Confiteor which means you can tag the enemy party and your team will be able to heal off.
It is damn powerful and even if you can't play PLD, the invulnerability itself is already strong enough for stalling

did you not read any of the issues regarding cover? because i went into detail but ill put it plainly, what good is cover if someone runs away?

Also im a bit confused by this statement "Oh yeah it also has a 3 GCD combo with the same effect of Confiteor which means you can tag the enemy party and your team will be able to heal off. " could you elaborate? i understand the 3 gcd part its the end bit that has me confused are you saying or implying confeiteor allows the PLD to heal from ally attacks because im pretty sure thats not how it works.

and lastly your saying that it doent matter if your stunned so long as you stall, for 10s it seems like people are making separate cases in PLD for FL or CC im making the case for it in general, but lets dissect this

FL: Youre a PLD in FL your LB is ready you use it along with cover, (again tho what good is cover when everyone is running around much less able to see anything) youre chain stunned 10s are over, how do you think this ends? what gains have realistically been made?
CC:Youre a PLD in CC your LB is ready you use it along with cover (same issue as before) same questions, before you answer with the obvious and predictable response i ask that you actually use your experience and answer honestly tho doubt itll be the case

[Elfidan]

Trying to play fantasy rather than class and madge because small.

[Kathleen_]

lol.......

[Gserpent]

Hallowed Ground self-buff should probably have higher priority, because it's not that uncommon to die with the buff active, but I don't know how much of this is just related to netcode and can't be fixed, considering tanks dying with invuln status active is also a thing in raids...

PLD is otherwise very well designed and tuned. Their damage is pretty mediocre but they have excellent staying power and a *3 sec* stun on a 15 sec cooldown. 20% DR plus 12k bubble is enormous survivability and Guardian is about as flexible as abilities get.

I wouldn't mind if they made it impossible to lose your Blades spells, though. If you have to do pretty much anything except I think Guardian or Sprint after triggering LB, you lose your Blades spells and that's an *enormous* amount of DPS and Sacred Claim uptime lost for no damn reason. It being a 120 sec charge time is cost enough to justify not losing your LB spells because you had to throw out a stun or something.

[Jettinson]

Also im a bit confused by this statement "Oh yeah it also has a 3 GCD combo with the same effect of Confiteor which means you can tag the enemy party and your team will be able to heal off. " could you elaborate? i understand the 3 gcd part its the end bit that has me confused are you saying or implying confeiteor allows the PLD to heal from ally attacks because im pretty sure thats not how it works.

It means that if your party hits any enemy that has the Sacred Clem debuff, they will also benefit from the healing, allowing more party sustain overall.

It is not the main feature that stands out but it is a decent bonus for a LB that makes you invincible (which honestly i wish the game could step away from invincible stuff but that is my opinion)

Won't matter if in CC or FL, it is a strong LB.

[RyanCousland]

It means that if your party hits any enemy that has the Sacred Clem debuff, they will also benefit from the healing, allowing more party sustain overall.

ok this im aware of but for some reason to me it sounded like you were saying PLD gets heals from ally attacks under sacred claim, my apologies

[Nanne]

Is this about FL or CC or overall?

[RyanCousland]

Is this about FL or CC or overall?

overall prior to 6.1 PLD could solo kill in duels had great utility in FL and Feast

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[...]

Ok for starters, please just edit your post and add additional quotes + comments. This circumvents the 3000 character limit from the initial post and condenses everything in one comment.

Cover IS dependent on your teammates skill these are not mutually exclusive thereby making cover THE issue, and when you say "stick around" how exactly do you think that scenario plays out? is PLD doing damage or sacrifices damage for futile attempt to survive? or is the teammate using this opportunity to heal or do damage? how many opponents are there? if you havent played through these scenarios let alone thought about them then i can tell you it always ends with same results, and if what im inferring from your statement that the 20y is a time saver (to an extent) and the tether is 10y to maintain then yeah im aware of that, the running around part i mentioned was in reference to maintain that 10y connection, and my original point to your "remedy" was how does a 20y gap closer animation lock out weigh the time it takes for cover's effect to be useful/activate? (especially if your teammate has any Debuffs/DOTS on them)

I believe you misunderstood what I am saying. I never said they are mutually exclusive - I said that if your teammate is the one running away while you already used cover (and hopefully used a macro for it with "Covering <teammate>!" in it) then you did your part, Cover in what the ability is supposed to be did its part and your teammate is the one being the issue.

I never said anything about sticking around with a teammate who is clearly overextending. If they dive a backline alone and get gobbled up by four teammates or decide to not retreat in a 2v4/2v5 scenario with you, shame on them because you shouldn't Cover that and rather run to ensure your LB charges up.

And before you assume and lecture me about situations with Cover and how animations about it may pan out, I actually play Paladin along with Dark Knight as my main jobs in PvP. The dash animation lock isn't so utterly damning as you make it out to be. For an ability of this caliber to give your teammate a second chance in life, the short wind-up is fair. I simply got used to it by reacting earlier rather than later.

I'm pretty sure i made it clear that im aware of how to use cover, but perhaps i didnt expand in detail the issue with each of these combinations
1: its obvious any PLD would use cover and LB but again cover is useless if it exceeds 10y(and please dont repeat the LB line because this is about cover)
2: Guard and cover is a dps loss as well as a hindrance in mobility
3: HS and cover only works well depending on the matchup of how many opponents youre facing (2v4 is death sentence for PLD with cover because realistically its 1v4)

im aware of PLD toolkit but its seems youre arguments are coming from a perfect play mentality/scenarios in which im not sure how PVP is in EU or JP but in NA it is rarely that
also im not even going to get into the fact that cover is the only skill that cant be used in 1v1

I am glad you made it sure you know, but frankly I will have to repeat certain things since you can't talk about Cover one-dimensionally since it is a synergy-based ability.
1.) Once again, your teammates have skill issues. If your covered teammate insists on running away, that's on them not you.
2.) This isn't PvE, Paladin DPS doesn't matter as much as you want it does and a DPS loss by using Guardian-Guard is smaller than a DPS loss from either you or your teammate dying because that costs your team 15s+ LB charge time + about 20s or more of damage downtime from one player over 5s you not dpsing. If you care this much about your damage, you should give Dark Knight or Gunbreaker a serious consideration.
3.) Correct, this one is match-up dependent, though I kind of expected to not having to mention it.

About intended/perfect play - I am sorry to tell you this, but looking at any abilities through the scope of the average player or the lowest common denominator is generally bad practice at job balancing. Just because your region may have a surplus of such players does not mean you should balance abilities around them.

Also no offense, "I am not even going to get into the fact that cover can't be used in 1v1" yeah no, this is like complaining SCH damage is low in 1v1 because you can't spread dots or damage buffs. Certain jobs are not made for 1v1.

My comparison was in response to you saying cover now is "broken" when compared to pre 6.1, HG + cover had the invul as well as the mobility that is currently lacking

Hallowed also had +30s/+60s(pre-buff) the cooldown of Guard, Cover had a +20% dmg taken if they attacked you directly and there was no Elixir your teammate could make use of in the cover time. Also your own life tended to be relatively important as a medal carrier, particularly when Heavy Medal debuff was still around. You also were constantly duking it out as the objective were the players themselves in rather small arenas, so the mobility wasn't as great as you'd try to tell me.

If this is about Frontline/Rival Wings, fair enough. Then again, jobs never got balanced around those modes - at most they got terrible interactions fixed (Phalanx + Cover on Onsal capping).

[1]Name me another LB in which you can disregard half of its utility/purpose because thats what this response sounds like however i might be wrong in inferring [2] also Contradance is a counter not the other way around much like RPR. [3] And the idea that this LB is S tier is misnomer if it were the case then there would be more PLD players but there is not, aside from the Onsal period. PLD is at the bottom in terms of player usage

1.) First of all - you aren't disregarding half of the purpose, you are just having it delayed. If you actually got CCed for 10s, had no Purify for it and had "Blade of Faith ready" run out then that is tough but again I fail to see why people would waste their stuns on you like this.
2.) The order of use matters here. An aggressive Contradance gets countered by Phalanx, a Contradance tail-ending the duration of Phalanx counters Phalanx. Tenebrae Lemurum (RPR) spreads out players and blocks actions with Hysteria. You either use it before the Paladin manages to use Phalanx or tail-end it after Phalanx. Otherwise you use either of it mid-way defensively as an AOE "silence".

In terms of general practice though, Phalanx generally is used after Contradance, as the animation starting and Charmed applying being delayed from another, which is where Paladins use it.
3.) Phalanx is S-tier utility. It is unparalleled defensive value both for pushing or holding a point as a team. Your argument about player usage makes no sense, as the average player is drawn to high damage numbers and popping off over being a support - it does not lessen how strong this ability let alone Paladin is.

I bring it up all the time because i get the same response ....all....the...time,even your reply can be found if you scroll up but in other words lets gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb, is that your point? because theres multiple scenarios in which using chain stun method on the Lamb doesnt move the needle for W or has the opposite result for a L

"Gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb" - ...what? Your job design with Cover in it literally is using your own life to protect another. If you get chain stunned from Covering a teammate, you saved a teammate and wasted a team a ton of stuns. You could also use Purify along with it so you WOULDN'T get chain stunned. And if you get stunned without Cover during Phalanx... then I am sorry, but you baiting those stuns is like the greatest W a tank in any game could hope for. Do you have any idea how many people might be thankful that they hit you and not them?

so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current

I fail to see the point of this addition. You essentially only just moved Shield Bash onto Intervene to make "space" for Holy Spirit and giving it Shield Bash's cooldown. That is just making your stun more predictable and less flexible when you want to be mobile but keep your stun.

It would be smarter attaching "Requiescat" as a proc after Confiteor and Confiteor turning into Holy Spirit/Circle for 2-3 uses, if you really want it back.

Like I'm sorry if I am on a huge disagreement with you, but what I am understanding is you are either wanting Paladin to do more than it should or your view on how good Paladin's kit is skewed because your teammates genuinely drag you down. I mentioned this earlier and it is really not meant with malice - consider dropping Paladin for another job if you can't enjoy for what it is worth.

[RyanCousland]

Ok for starters, please just edit your post and add additional quotes + comments. This circumvents the 3000 character limit from the initial post and condenses everything in one comment.

tried didnt work for me, but The reason i took it into segments individually is because there sees to be a retention or cognitive dissonance issue with some of not only your responses but others as well which i will illuminate for you,also i dont enjoy doing it this way it limits me in the forum