Feeling Defeated

[Urthdigger]

It's fairer to say that the whole game is a skinner box. Existing in a vacuum, by itself, nobody would do content like Ifrit. The rewards are too little for the effort involved, and if that's all the game was most people would have long moved on. However, things like Ifrit do not exist in a vacuum, and in fact that's the beauty of the whole conversation. The Ifrit fight is not the skinner box. The Ifrit fight is what BENEFITS from the skinner box.

What's actually an example of operant conditioning in this game, is in fact all the content OUTSIDE what people are bitching about. Quests, levelling, Toto-Rak, Grand Companies... let me explain. In quests, you put in the effort to do the quest, and you get your reward in xp, gear, and plot. For levelling, you put in the effort and are rewarded with higher stats, and more abilities. This firmly sets into your mind that effort equates to reward. That if you keep working at something in this game, it will reward you. Then we have Toto-rak, a low level dungeon. However, it differs from the endgame dungeons in one important aspect: Every chest from the boss has a 50/50 chance for items of equal value. The chests scattered about have random rewards, but the big reward from the dungeons is 100%. You're gonna get something, it may not be the weapon for your job, but you're gonna get something. Finally, Grand Companies are a method of earning endgame gear through pure effort. Just get the seals and buy your gear. All of this firmly conditions you to play the game and get better gear. THAT is the skinner box. THAT is the chamber performing operant conditioning on you so you'll repeat a conditioned response.

[Ventus]

It's fairer to say that the whole game is a skinner box. Existing in a vacuum, by itself, nobody would do content like Ifrit. The rewards are too little for the effort involved, and if that's all the game was most people would have long moved on. However, things like Ifrit do not exist in a vacuum, and in fact that's the beauty of the whole conversation. The Ifrit fight is not the skinner box. The Ifrit fight is what BENEFITS from the skinner box.

What's actually an example of operant conditioning in this game, is in fact all the content OUTSIDE what people are bitching about. Quests, levelling, Toto-Rak, Grand Companies... let me explain. In quests, you put in the effort to do the quest, and you get your reward in xp, gear, and plot. For levelling, you put in the effort and are rewarded with higher stats, and more abilities. This firmly sets into your mind that effort equates to reward. That if you keep working at something in this game, it will reward you. Then we have Toto-rak, a low level dungeon. However, it differs from the endgame dungeons in one important aspect: Every chest from the boss has a 50/50 chance for items of equal value. The chests scattered about have random rewards, but the big reward from the dungeons is 100%. You're gonna get something, it may not be the weapon for your job, but you're gonna get something. Finally, Grand Companies are a method of earning endgame gear through pure effort. Just get the seals and buy your gear. All of this firmly conditions you to play the game and get better gear. THAT is the skinner box. THAT is the chamber performing operant conditioning on you so you'll repeat a conditioned response.

I give you a tip of the hat good sir, very well done!

This game was literally just a skinner box when it started. No content. Only grinding. So I assume steering from that until after 2.0 is hard. However, that does not excuse the new end game content that is a ridiculous waste of time.

[Urthdigger]

I give you a tip of the hat good sir, very well done!

This game was literally just a skinner box when it started. No content. Only grinding. So I assume steering from that until after 2.0 is hard. However, that does not excuse the new end game content that is a ridiculous waste of time.

Grinding does not equal a skinner box. Whether something is a skinner box or not has nothing to do with how much time it takes, or the rate of effort towards the reward. I'd actually argue that when the game came out, it FAILED at being a skinner box, since the large number of people who quit says that it didn't do a very good job of conditioning the players to stay glued to the game.

[Ventus]

Grinding does not equal a skinner box. Whether something is a skinner box or not has nothing to do with how much time it takes, or the rate of effort towards the reward. I'd actually argue that when the game came out, it FAILED at being a skinner box, since the large number of people who quit says that it didn't do a very good job of conditioning the players to stay glued to the game.

You're contradicting yourself. You claimed leves and questing were aspects of a skinner box, the core of this game when it came out and thus part of the grind. If you watched the video hulan posted it made a good comparison of diablo's reward system to skinner boxes. Players will go on quest (leve) kill mob get loot and reward and level up to feel progression. They are fooled into repeating the same task long beyond monotony and thus are trapped in a skinner box.

Perhaps you are confused on the definition

[Urthdigger]

You're contradicting yourself. You claimed leves and questing were aspects of a skinner box, the core of this game when it came out and thus part of the grind. If you watched the video hulan posted it made a good comparison of diablo's reward system to skinner boxes. Players will go on quest (leve) kill mob get loot and reward and level up to feel progression. They are fooled into repeating the same task long beyond monotony and thus are trapped in a skinner box.

Perhaps you are confused on the definition

Actually, I think I just misread your prior post. Grinding (Or, more precisely, the way the level curve works in games) IS an example of operant conditioning, because as the individual is more conditioned they can taper off the reward rate (the level gain) slowly until it hits the point of monotony, without reducing motivation. I was saying that how "Grindy" it is (How much you need to grind in the first place before we even consider the level curve) doesn't have to do with whether it's conditioning or not. Both FFXI and WoW employ conditioning in their level curves, even though we can all agree WoW is a lot less "grindy" than FFXI was.