Is PLD actually weaker than before?

[ForsakenRoe]

I guess the only way to find out is if ppl bring WAR/PLD into OWU next week and see if they can't beat enrage.

if anything, I'd expect WAR DRK for the shorter invulns and cracked selfsustain between TBN and BW/Equil, DPS will likely not be as much of a focus and doubly so for tank choice

be funny if the WF had a MCH though wouldn't it

[Arckrin]

As a 1.0 player and Playing since ARR times which I haven't quit... I must say this.

PLD in ARR had MORE mitigation toolkit than now let be honest. Rampart, convalecense, awareness, Tempered Will, Sentinel, Bulwark, Foresight, Reprisal, Hallowed Ground. ALL this was self mitigation.
And Today you have Rampart, Sentinel, Bulkwark, Holy Sheltron, Reprisal, Hallowed Ground...

Devs have chopped the PLD since HW over and over... They really don't know what to do with Paladin since then. Even with that main status VIT in HW 3.1 making it useless and doing WAR and DRK mains since then. (I even love the DRK of that time damn it)

Lets be real not even Bulwark work properly as a mitigation skills because some Skills YOU NOT BLOCK IT... what was Yoshi-P says regarding about block magic damage inco. since ARR ownwards? Ah Yeah "PLD will not block magic damage..."

Anyway PLD is just a Frankenstein.

In these sense 123 you got a GCD one is HSpirit the other is Burst Strike. Then the Confitor combo 4 GCDs feels like Wicked Talon Combo + Double Down. Goring Blade feels like Sonic Break same 60 secs recast but different potency.

The diference is that in the loop 1 min you are doing Wicked Talon Combo + continuation.
In PLD you are doing Atonements + Hspirit and as your "continuation" is Circle Scorn and Expiacion.
+Filler (my eggs) with due respect making 3 Hspirits while engage again the boss to fit the rotation again is just garbo... and the result is totally in dps lost...

I got today even my P8S weapon... and still I notice I could sustain more damage with old rotation than this... the requierscat combo was better in this sense in p5s you could keep dpsing while not jumping over the boss from one side to another... Lets be real if this is how they want to make PLD change they need to re-study other games how Shield and Sword works in a battle... even they can get inspiration of HALONE in the Raid! She have a several skills that are amazing for PLD...

At this point again *ranting* I feel PLD a mini GNB

[Rithy255]

Reply to above:
I think you forget to mention the differences between ARR mitigation and what we got now, a lot of ARR functioned so much differently from where we are today I don't even think it's a fair comparison, Tempered will for instance is just what arms length is for all tanks, Convalescence isn't really that strong but its ok, Awareness has no real reason to be a tank skill anymore considering bosses don't crit. The only good thing you mentioned was Foresight which is pretty strong but I'd trade It (and all the other abilities you listed) in a heart beat for Holy Shelltron, PLD's got less defensives for sure but a lot more quality in their kit, this also ignores that PLD has a bunch of sustain due to magic works now.

Bulwark you make a point that it's Inconsistent, that would be correct but that's the same for Dark Mind, Gunbreakers camouflage also is partly incosistent and works better with phyical damage, With Bulwark you know what you're getting you're going to block attacks for 20% which they don't work against DOT's but they will work in a lot of situations even blocking the Tank buster hit will be useful even after it applies a DOT, Holy shelltron is now great against DOT's nearly 30% mitigation and a regen. Bulwark is a good skill and has its uses I even think it's better then Camo for GNB. I'd at least consider bulwark a serious buff to PLD's defensive kit, Blocks work against magic have for a long while now so blocks are generally useful...

On the rotation Side PLD needs some tuning I think, right now it's actually pretty alright, Divine might feels great gives PLD flexibility unlike gunbreaker to have some ranged/sustain choice you can hold holy spirits outside your burst (where you're constantly ranged and sustaining), so you can use it in better situations, While theirs so similarities to Gunbreaker it doesn't really feel anything like gunbreaker to be apart from doing a 1, 2, 3 gives you a stack of Divine might.

I don't think the rotation is Refined it feels a bit rushed with how goring blade and fight or flight are right now, but the rework was a overall positive direction for the job I do think they need to also change other things like Atonement I want it reworked to give you might likely, maybe reduce it to two stacks and let you hold more might (like 2) so you feel even more flexible as a job, I dislike how many buttons PLD has now it needs some buttons merged. Goring Blade needs to do literally anything else or be removed. Fight or flight should just be removed, they can easily buff Req. Theirs some things like Cover, POA, Shield bash that should be changed or removed. But Overall PLD has at least more going for it then it had in 6.2

[Renathras]

As a 1.0 player and Playing since ARR times which I haven't quit... I must say this.

I appreciate your perspective, but...correct me if I'm wrong, Reprisal didn't exist in 2.0, so I assumed it didn't exist in 1.0? It was a DRK skill in 3.0, I think, before they did away with Cross-Class in...SB?...and made it a Role Action for all Tanks.

Arm's Length is Tempered Will + mitigation (due to the Slow)

Today you also have Passage of Arms (which raises the PLD's block to 100%, so is a mitigation CD, ignoring the party effect of damage reduction) and Divine Veil (which now works on the PLD). PLD self-healing now between Holy Spirit, Holy Circle, Clemency, and Swords is far and away better than Bloodbath and Cure 1 from ARR.

And as Rithy said, Awareness isn't necessary anymore since Bosses don't Crit. (If they DID, it'd be a Tank role action...but they don't.)

So that leaves us with: Rampart, Tempered Will, Sentinel, Bulwark, Hallowed Ground, Foresight, and Convalesense and Cure 1 which disrupted the rotation and was fairly weak then,
...vs what we now have: Rampart, Arm's Length, Sentinel, Bulwark, Hallowed Ground, Holy Shelltron, Reprisal, Passage of Arms, Divine Veil, and Holy Spirit/Circle/Swords/Clemency healing, only Clemency of which disrupts the rotation.

I do agree PLD has been all over the place (more ShB to present; SB still had most of the HW kit + Blocking now worked on Magic)

.

I would love to see Halone abilities for PLD, though. Holy instead of Ice, but it could be neat. Old SMN had the same problem where you had DWT from HW, Bahamut from SB, FBT from ShB, and the filler was ARR, and none of it made sense together. FBT summoned Phoenix but DWT did not summon Bahamut and that was a separate phase. You had two Dreadwyrm Aether but no reason for it. You still had Aetherflow from ARR even though it worked with none of the modern kit. You still had DoTs but also Egi-Assaults but also Summons. It was like each expansion they tacked something new onto it but all the old was left as it was even though the new had no real connection to it. It somehow produced a rotation that worked and competed with BLM for damage while having greater utility, but from a design perspective, it was a total Frankenstein.

I can see how PLD had basically become that before 6.3, but it's also that after 6.3, just with new makeup.

I don't think new PLD is bad, I'm just not sure what to think and I don't like Jobs having to be changed for the 2 min meta. I think the 2 min meta is the major problem in the game right now.

EDIT: I don't know the solution, though. Goring Blade is pointless button bloat at this point, and Fight or Flight and Requiescat should really be combined, and Requiescat not require being in melee still. And it is counterintuitive to need to drop 1-2 Atonements a minute to keep from drifting. On the one hand, that's a form of flexibility, I guess, but on the other hand, it isn't immediately obvious to new players that's what they should be doing.

[MagiusNecros]

I'm very interested in what they're going to do with 7.0, the 2 minute meta is already stale halfway through this expansion.

Since the devs have turned me into an absolute cynic when it comes to their ability to design good gameplay nowadays I expect that exactly nothing will change and we'll be stuck with everyone spamming their burst on cooldown every 2 minutes and this sleep inducing gameplay for another 2 years, but I don't think this can continue for much longer either.

Outside of hopping into PvP for my 150 matches to get the sexy armor, fishing expeditions and casual Mining I currently have no interest in PvE content. The battles overall are stale and the combat is not interesting to me with the 2 minute meta.

I am hopeful that 7.0 brings much needed changes but I'm not getting my hopes up when it seems they phoned in the expansion to focus on devoting more resources to FF16.

[Rithy255]

only Clemency of which disrupts the rotation.

Just mentioning as Clemency doesn't disrupt rotation really, If you mean it breaks PLD's combo, they actually recently changed that. If you mean it puts you one GCD behind, Kinda? You can generally just adjust for Clemency by cutting down on one atonement, Clemency is comparable to ARR cure 1, both skills u shouldn't really use without reason, but Clemency is a much useable and important emergency tool it's a good example of how much PLD's general kit has been refined from the ground up for what it was.

I agree pretty much with everything you said in that post, but I don't think 2 minute meta is healthy for the game either but I do think the new take on PLD is actually good Divine might feels really good for the Job, Req felt way too long even though I liked it, I think Atonement and Divine might need some improving, Spell speed and skill speed need to be merged on Jobs like PLD (and DRK for Aoe, Unmend). The rework is a "step in the right direction" but I feel like it misses it mark in serval areas.

I enjoyed 6.2 and 6.3 PLD, both were and still are pretty flawed, but I want the 6.3 direction to be worked upon I'm really hoping they make some more adjustments in 6.4, I know this isn't likely but then again I didn't think they'd fix PLD's holy shelltron or change divine veil, even surpised they added a new defensive, So I do have some hope for the direction of the job.

[Mikey_R]

EDIT: I don't know the solution, though. Goring Blade is pointless button bloat at this point, and Fight or Flight and Requiescat should really be combined, and Requiescat not require being in melee still. And it is counterintuitive to need to drop 1-2 Atonements a minute to keep from drifting. On the one hand, that's a form of flexibility, I guess, but on the other hand, it isn't immediately obvious to new players that's what they should be doing.

Sorry, but I need to counter this every single time I see it.

You do NOT need to drop Atonements, or anything else for that matter. If you go the double Divine Holy Spirit in burst, or the priority for the filler GCDs in burst, you will do effectively the same damage overall, any difference being lost in natural damage RNG.

[Arckrin]

I appreciate your perspective, but...

Indeed Reprial was not on 2.0 was a HW 3.0 and same with Sheltron so we have 2 skills that use the shield. You didn't need divine veil back in that time due to protect skill was there. So I feel divine veil is a consequence of remove the Protect and the StoneSkin. In other words they put on tanks what they took from healers as a temporaly barriers.

Tempered Will was also a mitigation due to take you out the Poision Status and yes is now Arm's Length (and remember was removed the posion and slow. Now is you make them Slow 2 different things)

The Passage of Arms is a sht skill to use and no confortable you just use 1 sec just fast to mitigate the inco damage and thats all no real useful compared to devine veil or reprisal (yeah sure... use by your own but what ever is really useless for 1 sec)

Also don't count the Hspirit with Confiteor and Blades which were added basically as patched in 6.1-2 and not controlable mitigator. because literally was a counter mesure of the warrior been able to solo P1, Circle of Scorn doesn't regen hp is a DoT. Clemency doesn't disrupt your rotation but Aton. does.

Convalecense was a good skill in HW do to you can Clemency yourself or the healer after the TB.

Yes, It is true Mobs don't crit skills anymore and that is why Awareness was removed. Also, this was due to Crit overwrites block and parry.

Shield literally even if "blocks" the skills the % is sht if you compare back in old day that was even 32% and you want that in Nael for example. 20% is NOT enough. (you don't proc. blocks often only was with HSheltron and now is with the Bulkward... So Imagine to basically take you out 20% of block and 15% of mitigation to just put 15-15 :V
That is what they did right now.

Also Now that you mention I feel PLD that a Frankenstein. And we agree that has been over all places and lost his identity long time ago. and more with this shtty 2 mins meta. And agree I don't like the change jobs just to fit this kind of things. I feel even more easier to play old PLD than this new one. I really feel as a GNB specially that my Requierscat feels like a bloodfest charge the 4 skills of the burst...

I agree on Halone Skills as I reasure my first comment. Look so OP so wonderful I want that on the PLD.

Even if they put a counter defense something like Eg:
Phalanx: A percentage of damage is blocked and reflected to the enemy or enemies.
Effect: 20% of the incoming damage is reflected.
Aditonal Effect: Grants 15% of damage reduction during 4 secs.

And yes you need to jump 1 or 2 aton still. If you don't want to drift your whole rotation. People who don't do it just like to be in a drifting rotation.

[Curisu]

You don't need to drop anything in the basic PLD rotation.
Just stop the normal 123444hs combo whenever your burst is ready, do the confetti burst and then continue the basic rotation were you stopped it.
Even if that means to do 12 of your combo into the FoF.
Because you will even out the dmg in the long run due to not dropping a high potency GCD.

Everything else goes into the optimization and requires knowledge and planning of a fight.
Like in p8s2 when you know your rotation will reset due to a mechanic, you can hard cast HS in the FoF window instead of a 12 combo.

[Absurdity]

Today you also have Passage of Arms (which raises the PLD's block to 100%, so is a mitigation CD, ignoring the party effect of damage reduction) and Divine Veil (which now works on the PLD). PLD self-healing now between Holy Spirit, Holy Circle, Clemency, and Swords is far and away better than Bloodbath and Cure 1 from ARR.

Calling Passage self mitigation is rather generous when the block portion of it disappears immediately as soon as you cancel the cast, and no paladin worth their salt is going to sit there and channel PoA for busters (besides block being rather useless this tier).