Is PLD actually weaker than before?

[eagledorf]

Defensively, PLD is much better than before, though Hallowed Ground still needs a cooldown reduction.

Offensively, PLD is about 2-4% weaker than before, so yes patch 6.3 was a massive middle finger to PLD players in that respect. With raid buffs (i.e. aDPS) it's almost a wash, but still lower in many fights. That means at best nothing about PLD's DPS problem was resolved, worst case it's even worse now.

Basically, DRK+DRK remains the best if not for LB generation. As long as SE balanced an encounter so that Passage of Arms isn't actually required, PLD is inevitably garbage for the second tank spot because it brings the worst DPS and worst invuln. (At least once buffs have been planned out.)

SE still doesn't understand why they're constantly failing to balance the tanks because they have no respect for players and refuse to listen to the problem.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

I feel Hallowed Ground is fine; its probably the 2nd best invuln given that it is a "true" invul..superbolide sucks because it makes healers go panic mode. Living dead sucks because its Holmgang with a longer CD and some modest HP recovery. Holmgang is the king due to its crazy low CD.

I think thats the nail on the head - Paladins have some real MT staying power; but as a OT I just don't see why you would bring them over others.

[Rithy255]

I feel Hallowed Ground is fine; its probably the 2nd best invuln given that it is a "true" invul..superbolide sucks because it makes healers go panic mode. Living dead sucks because its Holmgang with a longer CD and some modest HP recovery. Holmgang is the king due to its crazy low CD.

I think thats the nail on the head - Paladins have some real MT staying power; but as a OT I just don't see why you would bring them over others.

Superbolide can pair well with heart of corundum it's certainly not the best invul but I consider being 1 minute quicker then HG is a way better advantage, Living dead maybe a gimmicky longer holmgang but it's on 5 minutes it's pretty short when you compare it to Paladins or even Gunbreakers, Holm gang is holm gang.

Hallowed grounds main advantages are more for casual content where healers/tanks use Invuls either in big pulls or emergencies, when your in a coordinated team it's next to useless to have the "better effect" when healers know whats coming, to me PLD's easily 4th place in terms of invul and will stay that way

Paladins also have some good MT potential the Issue is that oh no Warrior Exists what's the point of bringing Paladin when a warrior can do a lot of what you can do but just better at Sustain, strong raid wide, pretty Good defensives, Shortest invul, even slightly better DPS right now, PLD's just outshined by warrior and warrior isn't even meta, PLD's advantages are some really useless utilities in clemency and cover... Shield bash? I guess passage can be alright, if everyones together for that mech.

[Absurdity]

I feel Hallowed Ground is fine; its probably the 2nd best invuln given that it is a "true" invul..superbolide sucks because it makes healers go panic mode. Living dead sucks because its Holmgang with a longer CD and some modest HP recovery. Holmgang is the king due to its crazy low CD.

I think thats the nail on the head - Paladins have some real MT staying power; but as a OT I just don't see why you would bring them over others.

Debatable. The fact that Superbolide sets you to 1 HP is entirely negligeable when it's use is planned, which it always is in content where it actually matters. Both Superbolide and Hallowed Ground are also true invulns, not taking any damage comes with unique benefits that Holmgang and Living Dead simply don't have.

The latter two are also not nearly as useful than they were up until Asphodelos due to how tank busters work this tier and may work in the future.

[fulminating]

Without being too overdramatic, was the paladin rework a failure on every level?

Its playstyle was annihilated
Somehow it deals less damage
——The lack of 6.31 buffs indicate this was intentional
Dark knight outshines it in both offence and defence
None of the button bloat was addressed - indeed bulwark has only exacerbated it
——Fof and req could easily have been combined, and req transforming into confetti
Cover is still a meme
The levelling experience is a joke
Shield bash, despite being beyond niche, still breaks combo
Sheltron now works on dots and while stunned (this one is a positive)
Hallowed ground is a very long cooldown for what amounts to precious little gain over superbolide or even the other invulns (has actual invulnerability been of benefit since cursekeeper?)

I do not understand who or what this was in aid of.

[Absurdity]

Hallowed ground is a very long cooldown for what amounts to precious little gain over superbolide or even the other invulns (has actual invulnerability been of benefit since cursekeeper?)

Last time was in P2S (allowing you full uptime during phase 4 Predatory Avarice + Dissociation + Spoken / Winged Cataract) and could be used to negate most of Heartstake's damage in P4S phase 2.
No idea if there are cases like that in this tier but Holmgang and Living Dead are absolutely weaker on the DoT busters.

[fulminating]

You still have to mitigate the dot busters or you get slapped with a 7 figure damage tick after hallowed/bolide wears off. I considered mentioning heart stake, but that was a similar situation. That said, I think e10s may have had the damage down debuff attached to actually taking damage, so that's another place unless I'm misremembering there.

[Cabalabob]

Just a thought, if they made sword oath stack up to 6 times (3 per royal authority) and made atonement not break combos, then we could prime HS and RA and then spam atonement until FoF is ready and if we had any excess stacks they wouldn’t be lost when we used RA, they’d just carry over until after our burst.

[Cabalabob]

With the potency tweaks and atonement not breaking combos in the latest patch the rotation feels a lot smoother now. Being able to prime RA and DM and spam atonement until FoF comes off CD feels a lot better.

But I still think making atonement stack up to 6 would be helpful. I find myself priming the double DM Holy Spirit combo every time now, but this often leads to excess stacks of atonement being lost to using RA (Which is now even more impactful to our dps outside of the burst window because of the atonement potency buff).

I realise that the potency difference between DM Holy Spirit and atonement now is so minimal that it’s probably just as effective if not more so to just use the excess atonement during FoF but double DM Holy Spirit just feels so natural to me and I don’t see any huge repercussions to being able to store some extra atonement stacks.

[FudoMyoo]

who gives a shit, i just love paladin.