Is PLD actually weaker than before?

[Cabalabob]

So basically we’re looking at another dragon kick monk/paradox mage scenario where it just doesn’t matter what you do you’ll hit the same number.

[Eliroth-Kaminari]

In summary: It's not so easy to judge whether you should or shouldn't drop atonements. The gains of setting up are super small at best and you'd need a spreadsheet to figure out whether or not dropping the atonements is actually a gain because the damage between filler abilities is just too close to tell otherwise.

The beautiful thing about the PLD rotation is that the filler GCDs are all so close that not doing the setup may actually be a gain.

- Worst Filler - Fast -> Riot -> Royal Authority: 860 base potency (FoF Potency: 1075)
- Second worst filler - Hardcast HSx3: 960 base potency (FoF Potency: 1200)
- Practical Filller - Holyspirit (DM) -> somethingx2: 930 to 1210 base potency (FoF potency: 1162.5 to 1512.5)
- Best case - Holyspirit (DM) x2 + Royal Authority: 1280 base potency (FoF Potency: 1600)

Based on the above combinations, whether you'd want to be dropping the atonement(s) for alignment is still up for debate. This is primarily because dropping atonements is also a potency loss and with everything being so close, you can't exactly say for certain it is a gain without a spreadsheet taking into account everything later in the encounter.

I see your point there but i think you really do want Best case into your 2 4 6 min windows because you here are not considering party buff in that potency gain/loss

[nia_saeli]

I see your point there but i think you really do want Best case into your 2 4 6 min windows because you here are not considering party buff in that potency gain/loss

I agree. I'm mostly just parroting the rotation as I understand it.

It isn't that the "yolo just fill it with w/e" is optimal, but that it's hard to determine whether you should be dropping and prepping without knowing exactly what your filler is before hand. Still going to need those spreadsheets to know for certain.

In summary, PLD is still a spreadsheeting nightmare to optimize, we just gain very little from it which is why the rotation exists as listed.

[Absurdity]

Well, if you're keeping Divine Might until right before the next Royal Authority instead of spending it immediately you should have at least 1 buffed Holy Spirit for every FoF window, so your worst filler would be HS(+DM) - Fast - Riot: 930 base (1.162 under FoF).


Although I still need to test what happens if you were to replace Fast & Riot Blade in your filler with 2 unbuffed HS instead (for a 275 potency gain) because that changes which fillers you have available in later burst windows.

[Mikey_R]

The thing is, you cannot just look at PLD's burst phase and go based on that, that was the original misconception which lead to the 2 Divine Holy Spirits per FoF window, as that was the highest damage. You also have to look at the rest of the rotation as dropping Atonements is wasting potential damage and if you delay your combo with Holy Spirits, you delay atonements, which could mean lower damage potential compared to just following the priority system.

This does, of course, assume 100% uptime on a boss and if you do disconnect for any length of time, either Divine Holy Spirit or a hardcast Holy Spirit is going to be optimal, just because you are keeping damage up where you otherwise wouldn't.

[eagledorf]

Defensively, PLD is much better than before, though Hallowed Ground still needs a cooldown reduction.

Offensively, PLD is about 2-4% weaker than before, so yes patch 6.3 was a massive middle finger to PLD players in that respect. With raid buffs (i.e. aDPS) it's almost a wash, but still lower in many fights. That means at best nothing about PLD's DPS problem was resolved, worst case it's even worse now.

Basically, DRK+DRK remains the best if not for LB generation. As long as SE balanced an encounter so that Passage of Arms isn't actually required, PLD is inevitably garbage for the second tank spot because it brings the worst DPS and worst invuln. (At least once buffs have been planned out.)

SE still doesn't understand why they're constantly failing to balance the tanks because they have no respect for players and refuse to listen to the problem.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

I feel Hallowed Ground is fine; its probably the 2nd best invuln given that it is a "true" invul..superbolide sucks because it makes healers go panic mode. Living dead sucks because its Holmgang with a longer CD and some modest HP recovery. Holmgang is the king due to its crazy low CD.

I think thats the nail on the head - Paladins have some real MT staying power; but as a OT I just don't see why you would bring them over others.

[Rithy255]

I feel Hallowed Ground is fine; its probably the 2nd best invuln given that it is a "true" invul..superbolide sucks because it makes healers go panic mode. Living dead sucks because its Holmgang with a longer CD and some modest HP recovery. Holmgang is the king due to its crazy low CD.

I think thats the nail on the head - Paladins have some real MT staying power; but as a OT I just don't see why you would bring them over others.

Superbolide can pair well with heart of corundum it's certainly not the best invul but I consider being 1 minute quicker then HG is a way better advantage, Living dead maybe a gimmicky longer holmgang but it's on 5 minutes it's pretty short when you compare it to Paladins or even Gunbreakers, Holm gang is holm gang.

Hallowed grounds main advantages are more for casual content where healers/tanks use Invuls either in big pulls or emergencies, when your in a coordinated team it's next to useless to have the "better effect" when healers know whats coming, to me PLD's easily 4th place in terms of invul and will stay that way

Paladins also have some good MT potential the Issue is that oh no Warrior Exists what's the point of bringing Paladin when a warrior can do a lot of what you can do but just better at Sustain, strong raid wide, pretty Good defensives, Shortest invul, even slightly better DPS right now, PLD's just outshined by warrior and warrior isn't even meta, PLD's advantages are some really useless utilities in clemency and cover... Shield bash? I guess passage can be alright, if everyones together for that mech.

[Absurdity]

I feel Hallowed Ground is fine; its probably the 2nd best invuln given that it is a "true" invul..superbolide sucks because it makes healers go panic mode. Living dead sucks because its Holmgang with a longer CD and some modest HP recovery. Holmgang is the king due to its crazy low CD.

I think thats the nail on the head - Paladins have some real MT staying power; but as a OT I just don't see why you would bring them over others.

Debatable. The fact that Superbolide sets you to 1 HP is entirely negligeable when it's use is planned, which it always is in content where it actually matters. Both Superbolide and Hallowed Ground are also true invulns, not taking any damage comes with unique benefits that Holmgang and Living Dead simply don't have.

The latter two are also not nearly as useful than they were up until Asphodelos due to how tank busters work this tier and may work in the future.

[fulminating]

Without being too overdramatic, was the paladin rework a failure on every level?

Its playstyle was annihilated
Somehow it deals less damage
——The lack of 6.31 buffs indicate this was intentional
Dark knight outshines it in both offence and defence
None of the button bloat was addressed - indeed bulwark has only exacerbated it
——Fof and req could easily have been combined, and req transforming into confetti
Cover is still a meme
The levelling experience is a joke
Shield bash, despite being beyond niche, still breaks combo
Sheltron now works on dots and while stunned (this one is a positive)
Hallowed ground is a very long cooldown for what amounts to precious little gain over superbolide or even the other invulns (has actual invulnerability been of benefit since cursekeeper?)

I do not understand who or what this was in aid of.