PvP gameplay balancing

[Metalface_Villain]

PvP now with the spell changes and new mode is much better than it used to be but in my personal opinion there is still a lot of progress to be done.
I think that as it is, the gameplay doesn't feel as good as it can be and it can be improved with very minor changes. My suggestions are that the HP needs to be raised a bit and recup should be a cooldown and maybe have 2 charges if one isn't enough. This is so people don't keep spamming heals to survive but also more HP so you don't get one shot casually. The other thing is the CC (crowd control). There is simply too much of it and it is very oppressive. Remove many of the CC and increase the cooldown of purify so you end up with fewer CC but more impactful.
My reasoning for these changes is so that people can actually play their characters. As it is now you might go from getting booped, to pulled, to stunned by one person, into another stun etc and it's not fun. It's also not fun when you are on the offensive and someone keeps healing and running. in general I'm not a big fun of the gameplay being this fast when it comes to its combat outside of ults. I think pvp needs to be more methodical and less mash the buttons fast.
There are almost 0 things that I'd want ff14 to copy from other games since it does its own thing and it does it well but for pvp they need to take a look at wow imho.

[Conadrium]

PvP now with the spell changes and new mode is much better than it used to be but in my personal opinion there is still a lot of progress to be done.
I think that as it is, the gameplay doesn't feel as good as it can be and it can be improved with very minor changes. My suggestions are that the HP needs to be raised a bit and recup should be a cooldown and maybe have 2 charges if one isn't enough. This is so people don't keep spamming heals to survive but also more HP so you don't get one shot casually. The other thing is the CC (crowd control). There is simply too much of it and it is very oppressive. Remove many of the CC and increase the cooldown of purify so you end up with fewer CC but more impactful.
My reasoning for these changes is so that people can actually play their characters. As it is now you might go from getting booped, to pulled, to stunned by one person, into another stun etc and it's not fun. It's also not fun when you are on the offensive and someone keeps healing and running. in general I'm not a big fun of the gameplay being this fast when it comes to its combat outside of ults. I think pvp needs to be more methodical and less mash the buttons fast.
There are almost 0 things that I'd want ff14 to copy from other games since it does its own thing and it does it well but for pvp they need to take a look at wow imho.

Recuperates limiting factor is your MP. You can only cast it 4 times before you’re out. It does regen but pretty slowly, unless you let them drink a potion (takes like 5 seconds and is interrupted by damage). It doesn’t need a cooldown. I agree with most of the rest except for your solution to CC. CC in general just needs to be reduced. Increasing the CD on recuperate would only exasperate this problem and make already OP jobs (looking at you dark knight) that much more ridiculous.

[Jybril]

I think we need to do something with HP so we can spend more time fighting than healing. It's actually annoying that you spam the damn heal in the middle of a rotation in the midst of everything going on. The whole CC thing has been an issue forever and they still didn't fix it LOL.

[Metalface_Villain]

yeah fighting a tank or healer that can spam 4 big heals between their own abilities that give em survivability is peak pvp gameplay :|

[IDontPetLalas]

yeah fighting a tank or healer that can spam 4 big heals between their own abilities that give em survivability is peak pvp gameplay :|

So if we look at AST, for example, what would you propose? There is no insta-kill damage spell, there are no high-damage DPS skills, there is gravity with a CC, other than that if you're up against a melee you have to heal up to survive.

Previously, it would have been even more healing focussed and less damage focussed as a healer, whereas now all healers are real more "supports", especially as a SGE- however as WHM, they shouldn't have to spam heals in their "rotation" ( not there really is one in PVP).

[Kolaina]

So if we look at AST, for example, what would you propose? There is no insta-kill damage spell, there are no high-damage DPS skills, there is gravity with a CC, other than that if you're up against a melee you have to heal up to survive.

Previously, it would have been even more healing focussed and less damage focussed as a healer, whereas now all healers are real more "supports", especially as a SGE- however as WHM, they shouldn't have to spam heals in their "rotation" ( not there really is one in PVP).

Well, it’s still a healer. Imagine a healer with the killing potential of a dps or survivability of a tank…

Dps get to do damage. Tanks get to soak damage. Healers get to replenish health. These are the things that sperate them from others. If we started making roles good at everything, or even multiple things, we walk into a territory of imbalance

[AnotherPerson]

The other thing is the CC (crowd control). There is simply too much of it and it is very oppressive. Remove many of the CC and increase the cooldown of purify so you end up with fewer CC but more impactful.
My reasoning for these changes is so that people can actually play their characters. As it is now you might go from getting booped, to pulled, to stunned by one person, into another stun etc and it's not fun. It's also not fun when you are on the offensive and someone keeps healing and running.

PvP is very methodical at its core. You just haven't noticed it yet, or haven't developed the right frame of mind for how to go about it. It's not unusual, because there's a lot more technical aspects to take into consideration if you want to build a methodical playstyle around it, and usually that's not a concern for most people playing this game mode. If you are referring to frontlines (since you're talking about multiple players able to CC you to death and finding no chance to purify), tactical ability, situational awareness, and positioning are all equally as important as player's mastery over their job skills.

What most of the problem you're describing is, most people call that positioning. If you position yourself well enough, you won't die, or have ample time to adjust to a bad situation (and purify out to safety). If you position yourself poorly, you'll die or be caught in a bad spot and die. Positioning your character well is just as important as using your skills and dodging mechanics like in PvE content. If you step in a place where you can easily get hit by enemies, you'll have a higher chance of dying. If you get left behind because everyone else ran and you didn't respond in time? You'll get caught out and die. Most players tend to not realize that they're positioned in a very poor place and die as a result. PvE might have indicators for AoE, but in PvP, it's up to you and your opponents to spot the places where someone is out of place and respond accordingly.

With the adjustment to job damage in Frontlines, the theoretical HP of all jobs have actually been raised greatly, even if you can't see it, so the problem isn't an increase in HP, or lackthereof. The lack of HP you feel, is actually because I've noticed an upwards trend of players improving. It's not that CC is crazy, it's just that players are improving and being able to spot these weaknesses a lot better lately, and play accordingly in response (which isn't strange, we just had a tomestone event and lots of players are becoming increasingly familiar with the map and their job in PvP). I also have to equally step up my game and make a lot less mistakes that I usually can get away with in the past or I'll be dying a lot. Purify is actually plenty impactful as it is, and using it appropriately to escape situations properly demonstrates your ability in tactical ability, positioning and situational awareness. You can't sprint if you recuperate. If someone can get away while spamming recuperate, it means they weren't being focused heavily enough in the first place to get them killed - they positioned themselves well enough to avoid a death.

Do note: Mashing buttons faster doesn't mean more actions will be happening any faster than you would in PvE. Frontlines is still subject to a GCD and OGCD actions. Their only difference is the priority of how they're used. In that respect, Crystalline Conflict has a higher requirement to micromanagement in skill due to being matched with more players of similar skill levels to yourself, but limited in its macro management since you only have to focus on at most 9 other players. However, Frontlines actually has a bigger theoretical potential to reach exactly because of the increased chaos introduces a lot more variables into the equation when compared to Crystalline Conflict. To be at the peak of Frontlines, you have to pay attention to both micro and macro control, as well as any uncontrollable factors that can suddenly prop up. This is what really confuses people because the disparity in the highest peak of a player's skill can be extremely vast due to all these other considerations that influence the way they play, but it will never affect most people because the highest point of the gameplay requires too much effort in proportion to its gains that most people don't actually consider it. And honestly, it's how vast that a player's individual skill expression can be with PvP's level of toolkit that keeps me returning to Frontlines. The more I play, the more I realize there are lots of different ways for me to improve if I really set my mind to chasing a complete victory, but I can be perfectly content without that knowledge if I just want to play well enough to make a difference without that kind of stress. Crowd control only helps this, not take away from it. If Purify had its cooldown lengthened and most jobs lost their CC, we would be in no different state from bursting everyone down to get a kill.

[MintnHoney]

Well, it’s still a healer. Imagine a healer with the killing potential of a dps

Poor SGE, you never even had a chance.

or survivability of a tank…

Like melee DPS?

Dps get to do damage.

And heal, and soak as much damage as tanks, and usually access to hard CC, and sometimes an alternative self-cleanse, and have instant-kill mechanics, and party buffs, and...

Healers get to replenish health.

A severely limited amount of it, but, yeah, they sure do.

If we started making roles good at everything, or even multiple things, we walk into a territory of imbalance

Unlike those well-balanced, perfectly designed Melee DPS, who only have the basic essentials so that they can survive on the battlefield.


I really wish that they doubled down on the "stop looking at jobs as roles in PVP" thing. I wish my AST could be a death-machine, if I so chose. Oh well.

[Conadrium]

Have you ever actually stepped foot into PvP? Positioning is meaningless when control if your character can be taken away in 5 different ways in 3 seconds. And due to hamster wheel servers purity’s immunity basically doesn’t exist.

[Metalface_Villain]

seeing how you wrote your autobiography, i stopped reading at "you haven't noticed it". i have played proper pvp in wow for many years and at a decent rating, i don't think there is that much depth here that i'm missing. the convo here is about constructive criticism in hopes of positive changes for pvp, i have no interest in people shilling for the game and not seeing obvious faults, especially when said shilling is done in book length.