So does every hate new PLD now?

[Lamarcy2699]

Oh no sweat; to be fair under the old Paladin; you generally did not roll right into the blades combo at 90 after requis for your rotation; regardless I still preferred the old paladin gameplay to the new which just feels flat and awkward; having done this tier as Paladin. I used GNB when higher damage was needed and I agree the race against enrage is a frustrating dynamic to compete with; but as a dev I suspect the only alternative would be to have Boss HP pools be determined by party composition (could you imagine? "Well the party is 4 DNC 1 PLD 1 WAR and 2 AST; so P5s boss HP pool is 20m")

Honestly it doesn't even feel like a rework to me and more like a elective surgery to improve paladins place in the 2 min meta and reduce the issues with dot damage.

It's also funny because they nerfed the job significantly from where it was before in trying to make it fit

[Rithy255]

It's also funny because they nerfed the job significantly from where it was before in trying to make it fit

But it's at the same time going to be way easier to balance it out in the future now that it fits into burst windows.

I actually don't think it's a nerf in general 6.2 PLD was a clunky mess that was offensively weak (performed lower) but also really struggled defensively, right now you can at least say current PLD is decent defensively compared to the other tanks.

[Lamarcy2699]

But it's at the same time going to be way easier to balance it out in the future now that it fits into burst windows.

I actually don't think it's a nerf in general 6.2 PLD was a clunky mess that was offensively weak (performed lower) but also really struggled defensively, right now you can at least say current PLD is decent defensively compared to the other tanks.

Except it wasn't performing badly at all, on average it was performing just a tiny bit under DRK and now it's at the bottom of the barrel.

[Rithy255]

Except it wasn't performing badly at all, on average it was performing just a tiny bit under DRK and now it's at the bottom of the barrel.

1. It will be easier to potency buff PLD to hopefully be slightly higher
2. It really doesn't matter that much anyway, if you wanted a tank for DPS you bring DRK/GNB, You only really bring PLD for either fun or progression, the defensive benefits it's seen lately are actually pretty decent.

Do I like that every Job is always playing into every 120 window? no but I can also see how PLD's going to be much less annoying to balance for the future, A lot less people will be afraid of picking up the job to do good damage now, Ideally I'd actually want PLD to keep a separate combo the 1, 2, 3 Atonement (3x) spam isn't really great for the job and having stuff like FOF, Goring blade and Circle of scorn feels pointless to me, currently I don't even agree with every change I think the job is still in need of Improvement.

They likely undertuned PLD on purpose Imo rather then accidently overturning the job, even if they wanted to make PLD do more dps then it was, what then? gnb or drk becomes the "non" meta tank and people complain that gnb or drk don't have enough damage.

EDIT: also while yes PLD was only slightly behind dark knight, that doesn't actually account for how much PLD contributed to raid buffs as dark got more high potency damage in raid buffs the Job was contributing way more overall DPS, Hence why PLD bursts more now.

[Lamarcy2699]

1. It will be easier to potency buff PLD to hopefully be slightly higher
2. It really doesn't matter that much anyway, if you wanted a tank for DPS you bring DRK/GNB, You only really bring PLD for either fun or progression, the defensive benefits it's seen lately are actually pretty decent.

Do I like that every Job is always playing into every 120 window? no but I can also see how PLD's going to be much less annoying to balance for the future, A lot less people will be afraid of picking up the job to do good damage now, Ideally I'd actually want PLD to keep a separate combo the 1, 2, 3 Atonement (3x) spam isn't really great for the job and having stuff like FOF, Goring blade and Circle of scorn feels pointless to me, currently I don't even agree with every change I think the job is still in need of Improvement.

They likely undertuned PLD on purpose Imo rather then accidently overturning the job, even if they wanted to make PLD do more dps then it was, what then? gnb or drk becomes the "non" meta tank and people complain that gnb or drk don't have enough damage.

EDIT: also while yes PLD was only slightly behind dark knight, that doesn't actually account for how much PLD contributed to raid buffs as dark got more high potency damage in raid buffs the Job was contributing way more overall DPS, Hence why PLD bursts more now.

It still currently doesn't apply that much more towards raid buffs than before but we already have raid buffs contributing a SIGNIFICANT ammount of damage to the party through the dps, just adding to that makes jobs like MCH redundant. Not good enough to be a partner/benefit too much from buffs yet bringing one decreases your groups dps by a bit over a DNC or BRD. Same can be said for PLD/WAR now. It's a sad state to see jobs just become redundant because a better version of it already exists. Yet unlike MCH which feels different to play than the other ranged phys, WAR plays far too close to DRK as does PLD to GNB, almost like another reason not to even bring them because as I said, a better version already exists. It's also not like it was massively drifting to the point where not all your skills would not be under raid buffs, just that it'd get slightly earlier as every 2 min window passed. It'd have to be a really long fight to truly notice but even then adjusting for one fight that takes a while seems very impractical. Coming from ShB PLD, it should have been a lot better than where it currntly has been the entire expansion, but the change to 2 minutes is the cause of that. It's a system that, yes, allows for balancing to be easier but also leads to homogenization where the identity of jobs is becoming less visible. Rotations are also becoming an absolute joke. I mean mash the same button four times is not engaging gameplay for what is supposed to be a burst. Just seriously look at healers, because that's where tanks are now going it feels like.

[Shurrikhan]

It still currently doesn't apply that much more towards raid buffs than before but we already have raid buffs contributing a SIGNIFICANT ammount of damage to the party through the dps, just adding to that makes jobs like MCH redundant.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Raid buffs don't make exploiters (non-buffing / pure personal damage jobs) redundant. Having more exploiters or fewer (outside of taking single-target buffers) is irrelevant, as a job of half party-wide buffers and half exploiters will tend to perform equally to a job of all party-wide buffers as long as their rDPS is balanced. Single-target buffers, though, need ideal buff-users, specifically, in order to maximize their rDPS; AST and DNC would waste rDPS potential without a job each with maximal 2-min burst and maximal between-bursts damage (such as on BLM, SAM, MCH depending on timing).

Whether PLD has higher aDPS relative to its rDPS or not (i.e., whether it makes better use of buffs and therefore grants its buffers more rDPS) makes no difference to exploiters, and therefore does not upset any balance the likes of a MCH (or any other exploiter) would care about.

It merely makes it easier for PLD to be balanced simultaneously for 4-man content and 8-man content. Previously, for PLD to have aDPS parity (which is the parity one should be focused on in comparing tanks' damage, or any that of other selection of purely exploiters), it'd have to have a significant lead in rDPS and be overpowered in 4-mans. Now, they need simply turn the tuning knob to put it, say, just above WAR in both rDPS and aDPS.

As for gameplay, that is almost entirely a separate issue. Goring Blade did not have to be gutted for PLD to get use out of raid buffs more equal to the other tanks. It solely required compressing its burst phase. Yes, change Goring Blade from a 3-GCD skill to a 1-GCD skill compressed that (by 2 GCDs), but they could as easily have had FoF grant 3 stacks of Atonement (a compression of 3 GCDs), or even just left it at the Requiescat phase going directly into the Confiteor combo (already a compression of 4 GCDs) and FoF applying to all damage.

[nia_saeli]

It merely makes it easier for PLD to be balanced simultaneously for 4-man content and 8-man content. Previously, for PLD to have aDPS parity (which is the parity one should be focused on in comparing tanks' damage, or any that of other selection of purely exploiters), it'd have to have a significant lead in rDPS and be overpowered in 4-mans.

Apologies for interjecting, but I just felt like I should point out that: "Balance in 8 player content is the only balance that matters" or so I keep hearing.

If it's fine for a job to be bad in 4-player content for the sake of Savage Raid balance, it's also fine for them to have a job be overpowered in 4-player content for the sake of Savage Raid balance.

If SE actually cared about the balance in 4-player content, then Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting would have been nerfed/normalized to be inline with the other tanks right now because WAR is so oppressively good in all content from level 56 onwards with the sole exception of Savage/Ultimate raids.

IMO, it would have been absolutely fine for PLD to be "the super high DPS tank" outside of 8-player raids.