So does every hate new PLD now?

[Rithy255]

I feel somewhat the same myself. There's still some jank to clean up, especially in the button count. However, I think they kept most of what made the job solid intact and just need to iron things out. Contrast to the complete tear down of Summoner and I'll welcome the more cautious change. My own take is I think they can afford to axe Circle of Scorn and merge Holy Spirit/Circle into a single button with AoE. I'm not sure how I feel about Goring Blade yet but just cleaning up the button count would be a good step.

I don't mind if scorn stays, but if they removed it I wouldn't mind, I think the only issue is it would make level 50-60 PLD really even worse then it already is, a big issue that new PLD has is cutting out the DOT management you had in HW makes it really painful to play PLD until stormblood now, I really really hope that they make PLD at least have some magic in HW if not ARR, I like your cleave Idea with holy spirit, just make it do like 40% less damage to other targets (also update the animation a bit, so it makes more sense). Easily cuts out at least one ability

Theirs Plenty of ways to get rid of PLD'S "bloat" without changing the class: Rework Holy shelltron into a targeting ability (with 3 seconds cd so you can still can use one on self and the other tank), Make the Req button turn into Confiteor, Using goring blade gives you the FOF buff or just buff the req burst and remove fight or flight (make it a early version of req that gives u 4 powered up gcds), like you suggested remove circle of scorn (slightly buff expiacion) and/or make Holy spirit into a cleave that works both for aoe/single target, Removing "shield bash" Some people like this ability thought? so maybe not but meh.

I think theirs no excuse for the amount of PLD bloat we have right now, we don't really need to rework anything core to the new Paladin I think Building upon what it is now could be Interesting, I think atonement needs to not interrupt your 1, 2, 3 combo for example.

[ForteNightshade]

What's wrong with that?

The fact neither does enough damage compared to Dark Knight or Gunbreaker without bringing anything else to the table to compensate. Much as everyone memes Warrior being essentially a Healer in disguise, Bloodwhetting is fairly average in a raid setting. In fact, Dark Knight can mit better on four of the five Savage bosses and is straight up better in Ultimate. All while having noticeable higher damage output.

What's supposed to balance the tanks is utility and sustain. Warrior and Paladin both have options in this department that the other tanks lack. Except the outgoing damage is never enough to make that difference relevant. Paladin having both Veil and Passage is nice but nothing will ever require both. Therefore, Dark Knight's raw damage is always superior. Likewise, Bloodwhetting is nice but Heart of Conrundum is straight up better. Basically, there's no actual benefit to Warrior and Paladin's utility over the sheer damage profile Dark Knight and Gunbreaker offer.

...

To be fair, this issue isn't unique to Paladin. Although, I agree, it definitely among the worst offenders when synced down. They really need to go back and rework the job kits at lower levels because far too many jobs are simply awful. What boggles the mind is they already have a system with Warrior. Berserk is essentially baby Inner Release. They aren't a complete one for one but the intent is there. Every job should have something similar: a weaker version of their max level kit. For Paladin this could be in the form of a weaker Requiescat/Blade Combo.

Nonetheless, I agree there are potentially better ways to reduce Paladin's button bloat. It does seem a little pointless to have Fight or Flight and Requiescat now when the latter could just accomplish what both do. Shield Bash is whatever to me since I never even bothered putting it on my hotbar. They do need to rework Cover though. Otherwise, it's getting closer and closer to just being cut. Which I'd rather not see as it's a unique skill for Paladin.