So does every hate new PLD now?

[Fryfor]

Seeing as how you havent played ANY of the tanks, Nor even have a level 90 in anything.

Your statement is false.

A tanks job is NOT to outshine in DPS, but to hold the agro and take the punishment.

Maybe learn what the roles of each class are before you comment on something you have no clue and copy paste "what you hear"

How much endgame content do you engage with, again? What's your angle?

[Rithy255]

This is just objectively false.

Paladin has been the worst tank in pretty much every scenario this whole expansion. It's overall DPS was roughly tied with Warrior for the lowest, it had no burst to speak of in a burst centric meta, it lacked CDs to the point of being an actual hindrance in both Abyssos and especially Dragonsong and its sustain sacrifices damage. Regardless of whether you like the rework, Paladin was essentially a dying job at the high level. It simply couldn't compete with the other tanks.

I'll agree for the most part PLD had no real upsides and wasn't the best job to learn or optimise, I feel like they could have done a bit more with the rework though personally I hope we get some future changes as right now some things really feel a bit unpolished on the Job, but for the most part I find the rework actually not that bad you feel a lot less rigid and have a lot more flexibility now. I feel like Divine might is actually the best change giving PLD's a option to hold it for sustain/ranged outside burst windows (where you be range and sustaining anyway).

I can understand why people who liked old PLD wouldn't want to play it anymore, I say give it a try personally if people don't like it that's fair enough really, not everyones going to be happy about the rework, all I know is personally this rework needs a bit more polish as it's got some issues such as atonement breaking your main combo, FOF being around still makes no sense you use it on your magic burst mostly, Idk seems like they could just buff the burst? goring blade being a "press it once per minute" button.

I feel like they have something going with divine might, but they do need to make more improvements to the job in my opinion and I hope they're looking at some feedback other then "revert it"

[ForteNightshade]

Seeing as how you havent played ANY of the tanks, Nor even have a level 90 in anything.

Your statement is false.

A tanks job is NOT to outshine in DPS, but to hold the agro and take the punishment.

Maybe learn what the roles of each class are before you comment on something you have no clue and copy paste "what you hear"

I'm assuming you're talking to me.

If so, this is an alt account. You're welcome to look up Cassandra on a certain website for my credentials. I assure you, I have both several 90s (in fact, every single job but AST/MCH at 90) and play tanks.

With all that aside, perhaps you should actually know what you're talking about before criticising. Every role in the game is meant to deal damage. Both tanks combined contribute roughly 1.5 times that of a DPS. In other words, omitting tank damage would be the near equivalent to two of your DPS having permanent weakness for the entire duration of any fight. Better yet, it is statistically impossible to clear any Savage fight if neither tank did damage. Even with gear, you'd essentially be demanding your DPS play perfect to come anywhere close to the DPS check.

Nevertheless, I never once mentioned tanks "outshining DPS". I directly compared Paladin to the other tanks, all of whom were better at damn near everything. Dark Knight contributions monstrously higher DPS while having superior mitigation. Gunbreaker is much the same but simply weaker in outgoing damage while trading in some mitigation for better sustain. Even Warrior, despite being weaker in some fights, had a vastly superior defensive suite. Was Paladin still viable? Absolutely. It just couldn't compete with the other three tanks. Or to borrow your phasing, it couldn't "outshine" any of them.

I'll agree for the most part PLD had no real upsides and wasn't the best job to learn or optimise, I feel like they could have done a bit more with the rework though personally I hope we get some future changes as right now some things really feel a bit unpolished on the Job, but for the most part I find the rework actually not that bad you feel a lot less rigid and have a lot more flexibility now. I feel like Divine might is actually the best change giving PLD's a option to hold it for sustain/ranged outside burst windows (where you be range and sustaining anyway).

I feel somewhat the same myself. There's still some jank to clean up, especially in the button count. However, I think they kept most of what made the job solid intact and just need to iron things out. Contrast to the complete tear down of Summoner and I'll welcome the more cautious change. My own take is I think they can afford to axe Circle of Scorn and merge Holy Spirit/Circle into a single button with AoE. I'm not sure how I feel about Goring Blade yet but just cleaning up the button count would be a good step.

[Rithy255]

I feel somewhat the same myself. There's still some jank to clean up, especially in the button count. However, I think they kept most of what made the job solid intact and just need to iron things out. Contrast to the complete tear down of Summoner and I'll welcome the more cautious change. My own take is I think they can afford to axe Circle of Scorn and merge Holy Spirit/Circle into a single button with AoE. I'm not sure how I feel about Goring Blade yet but just cleaning up the button count would be a good step.

I don't mind if scorn stays, but if they removed it I wouldn't mind, I think the only issue is it would make level 50-60 PLD really even worse then it already is, a big issue that new PLD has is cutting out the DOT management you had in HW makes it really painful to play PLD until stormblood now, I really really hope that they make PLD at least have some magic in HW if not ARR, I like your cleave Idea with holy spirit, just make it do like 40% less damage to other targets (also update the animation a bit, so it makes more sense). Easily cuts out at least one ability

Theirs Plenty of ways to get rid of PLD'S "bloat" without changing the class: Rework Holy shelltron into a targeting ability (with 3 seconds cd so you can still can use one on self and the other tank), Make the Req button turn into Confiteor, Using goring blade gives you the FOF buff or just buff the req burst and remove fight or flight (make it a early version of req that gives u 4 powered up gcds), like you suggested remove circle of scorn (slightly buff expiacion) and/or make Holy spirit into a cleave that works both for aoe/single target, Removing "shield bash" Some people like this ability thought? so maybe not but meh.

I think theirs no excuse for the amount of PLD bloat we have right now, we don't really need to rework anything core to the new Paladin I think Building upon what it is now could be Interesting, I think atonement needs to not interrupt your 1, 2, 3 combo for example.

[Zarkovitch]

I'm okay with it, however there some clunk to it like attoment can drop combo and requiescat not being range due being the next magic combo is magic so technically this ogcd should play as magic range. Cover and Shield Bash is still a thing they should remove it.

[Rithy255]

I'm okay with it, however there some clunk to it like attoment can drop combo and requiescat not being range due being the next magic combo is magic so technically this ogcd should play as magic range. Cover and Shield Bash is still a thing they should remove it.

Why not instead of removing Cover/shield bash we look into how we could possibly make them more useful.

Cover is pretty simple you could 1. Remove it from gauge 2. extend the range 3. Add a healing or small defensive utility towards it.
Shield Bash, Make it a stun that doess 200 damage it stuns in aoe, OGCD has two stacks make gap closers (on all tanks) not do DPS.

[Marxam]

Why not instead of removing Cover/shield bash we look into how we could possibly make them more useful.

Cover is pretty simple you could 1. Remove it from gauge 2. extend the range 3. Add a healing or small defensive utility towards it.
Shield Bash, Make it a stun that doess 200 damage it stuns in aoe, OGCD has two stacks make gap closers (on all tanks) not do DPS.

I always thought that Cover should have been a role skill for all tanks and instead they introduce something more interesting in that slot. If PLD have a 50 gauge spender where they can drop a small target aoe for one person to stand in and they take significantly reduced dmg while in it i.e. first person to step in that aoe gets a buff but if they leave they lose it. That would be much more interesting and provide more utility than Cover and provide for interesting and potentially broken mechanic cheese. It would make for tower and stack mechanic shenanigans where you can place the aoe where the tower is and suddenly that one tower is taking less dmg. I'm also sure BLM's will love you for it when they got leylines up.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

I always thought that Cover should have been a role skill for all tanks and instead they introduce something more interesting in that slot. If PLD have a 50 gauge spender where they can drop a small target aoe for one person to stand in and they take significantly reduced dmg while in it i.e. first person to step in that aoe gets a buff but if they leave they lose it. That would be much more interesting and provide more utility than Cover and provide for interesting and potentially broken mechanic cheese. It would make for tower and stack mechanic shenanigans where you can place the aoe where the tower is and suddenly that one tower is taking less dmg. I'm also sure BLM's will love you for it when they got leylines up.

Well cover is a iconic FF 4 ability (Cecil gains it when he becomes a Paladin)
I feel Cover should be like dance partner.

[Elizasylen]

No I like it, I think it's great. I just really don't think Confettior and combo justify having an exclusive button for it. Button bloat is real. Fold Confettior into Holy Spirit/Circle or Req itself.

[Shurrikhan]

No I like it, I think it's great. I just really don't think Confettior and combo justify having an exclusive button for it. Button bloat is real. Fold Confettior into Holy Spirit/Circle or Req itself.

Having Req itself be replaced by Confiteor Combo would make far more sense, since Holy Spirit and Circle may be used without Req but Conf cannot be.

Also really don't care for PLD's Instant-Sonic-Break at this point, so I wouldn't mind seeing that go (though I'd still rather it just be reverted and Conf not break main combo progress, since FoF-Req-Conf-combo only delays the DoT by a single GCD anyways), or Atonement replacing Royal Authority when able or for Atonement not to break the main combo.