Remove/adjust Goring Blade.

[Kemeko]

[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Atonement][Atonement][Atonement][Holy Spirit]

Royal Authority hasn't been changed, it's 3 Sword Oath and 1 Divine Might, because level 76 is the first time Sword Oath was added to Royal Authority and includes Atonement which uses it.

[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement][Atonement][Atonement][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit]

It was Atonement that needed to change, because by adding it unchanged, it removes some of the Divine Might you had at level 70, causing a shortage of buffs. Also, just because Atonement was given new functions doesn't necessarily mean the old functions had to go away, which is why I included multiple new blocks reflecting the functions.

We end up with +1 Divine Might at 80 because Confiteor was added, and +4 Divine Might at level 90 because Confiteor combo was added as well. They're extending the rotation, rather than enhancing it. Hmm, having Confiteor combo have some form of interaction with Divine Might is something I haven't tested yet, not so much for potencies but for effects. At level 90, you can simply use 2 Shield Bash blocks with Atonement as filler only and the rotation naturally lines up without overcapping on buffs, because Confiteor combo extends the rotation that much. This couldn't be done at level 80 because Confiteor was by itself. However, there would be a potency loss because of the new effects of Sword Oath, so you'd be inclined to use Atonement as a combo or do Royal Authority twice in a row which would leave Atonement with little use unless you're recovering or prepping for disengagements.

[Mikey_R]

That hasn't answered my question of what the 60 second rotation is and has told me nothing new. I was expecting the full 60 second loop to be laid out so that I can properly analyse it as, as I mentioned, I struggled to come up with something coherent and, in my eyes, if a simple rotation cannot be outlined, then it is too complex. Look at any other jobs, none of them have a complex baseline rotation, it should be easy to see how it all lines up.

[Kemeko]

Multiple possible rotations have been added to the earlier post to keep it consolidated, since there isn't an agreed upon effect for Goring Blade. It's shown with [Shield Bash][Goring Blade] to maximize Sword Oath usage if Goring Blade is given such an effect. At least, the rotation can now have some semblance of a clean loop compared to before where it was too rigid regardless of what effect Goring Blade was given. Bear in mind, this doesn't go into how Fight or Flight and Requiescat will interact with each other because those will also have an impact on how a rotation is created, although it's already leaning towards having them separate in order to have a clean loop at earlier levels with how Divine Might and Requiescat now combine in this scenario.

[Mikey_R]

At least, the rotation can now have some semblance of a clean loop compared to before where it was too rigid regardless of what effect Goring Blade was given.

But you still haven't shown me the clean loop you intend with your changes.

[Kemeko]

For me, it'd go along these lines with the changes for Goring Blade in full effect:

[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement][Shield Bash][Goring Blade]
[Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Confiteor][Blade of Faith][Blade of Truth][Blade of Valor]
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement][Shield Bash][Goring Blade]

With Requiescat and Divine Might stacking, using Holy Spirit or Confiteor combo first under Requiescat should be the same potencies ideally. Requiescat is treated as a burst itself, not the Confiteor combo specifically. Confiteor combo would be an aoe burst if used within Requiescat.

Example of Goring Blade:
(Potencies have been adjusted to keep ppm in check)
(Line for Oath Gauge increase is part of the defensive toolkit enhancements which can be ignored for now)

[Action][Weaponskill] Goring Blade (Lv. 54)
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Riot Blade or Shield Bash
Combo Potency: 300
Combo Sword Oath Potency: 450
Combo Bonus: Increases Oath Gauge by 10
Combo Bonus: Grants Royal Blessing
Royal Blessing Effect: Increases damage dealt by 15%
Duration: 30s
Extends Royal Blessing duration by 30s to a maximum of 60s.
Combo Bonus: Grants 1 stack of Divine Might (Up to 5)
Duration: 30s

[Renathras]

Beside that the new PLD is not as bad as expected, just this awkward Goring Blade is annoying to me.

Agreed. And I honestly like the idea of Shield Bash doing boosted damage under Requiescat. Since they've introduced this "does X normally, does Y >> X when Requiescat/FoF in effect", I think they could really flex that here.

Another thing they could do is have Shield Bash not break Passage of Arms and do 350 potency (equal to HS) so that you would have something to do in those cases where you might want to hold Passage for more than a GCD and it wouldn't be a terrible loss (using HS outside of Divine might is an ~10 potency loss per use, which isn't terrible, so allowing it to work under Passage would be thematically cool and make it MOSTLY but NOT QUITE damage neutral, which would be nice.)

Agree 100% that Goring is completely pointless now, so there's no reason to keep it. Just have Royal upgrade to Goring for the animation (or Riot Blade or Fast Blade, I don't care) if they really want to keep the animation, but don't have it as a separate button. Just fold the potency, 200, 200, 300 into the Swords combo. Doing that also makes it less susceptible to "darn, it didn't crit!" since missing one crit out of 4 is less DPS loss than missing one crit out of 1.

Likewise, have FoF upgrade into Requiescat. Remove the damage component (and thus range requirement) so it's a straight upgrade from FoF, and instead, throw that 300 damage onto Confetior.

.

Changes:

Fight or Flight: Trait at level 68 upgrades FoF into Requiescat
Requiescat: Has no damage, has no range, additional effect: Increases damage dealt by 25% for 20 seconds.
Confiteor: Requiescat potency 1200 (this is a slight buff in AOE...but who cares? Modern encounters rarely allow for AOE cleaving anyway.)
Blade of Faith: 900
Blade of Truth: 1000
Blade of Valor: 1200
Goring Blade: Removed (if keeping the animation is so important, can repurpose it as an upgrade to Fast Blade, Riot Blade, Royal Authority [like how it is an upgrade of Rage of Halone], or Atonement)

[Optional]
Spirits Within: Trait at level 50 upgrades Spirits Within to Circle of Scorn
Circle of Scorn: Deals 530 damage to target and 50% less to all surrounding enemies (range 5y); Additional Effect: Restores MP; Trait at level 86 upgrades to Expiacion.
[NOTE: This makes Circle do approximately the damage of using Circle (100 AOE) + its DoT (150 AOE) + Spirits Within (270 single target); in this case, that is 270 + 100 + 150 single target (530) and 265 to additional targets (vs 250 in current Circle); again, a slight AOE buff, but that's not really super relevant. NOTE: To do "60% less damage" and still do 250 AOE would require 625 base potency. Granted, this is only a leveling skill, so...... why does this matter? Because current Expaciation does 60% less.]
Expiacion: Deals 710 damage to target and 60% less to all surrounding enemies (range 5y); Additional Effect: Restores MP
[NOTE: This makes Expaciation do the total damage of Expacion + Circle right now, with 284 damage to AOE targets, which is a 34 potency AOE buff over the current combination of the two. But, again...AOE...isn't relevant in essentially any end-game content where balance matters...and PLD isn't exactly topping the damage charts anyway.]

[Optional Bonus]
Shield Bash: During Passage of Arms, deals 350 potency of damage, does not break Passage of Arms.
Passage of Arms: Effect ends upon using another action or moving (including facing a different direction) other than Shield Bash.

[Optional Bonus 2]
Cover: Remove the Shield Oath gauge cost. The CD already prevents overuse.

[Alternative Option if the Devs want to keep a button LIKE Goring Blade]
Shield Bash has the additional text: Requiescat Potency: 700;

.

Not saying any of this HAS to be, but these would all result in the same single target damage (and close enough AOE damage, not that that matters), remove an unnecessary DoT debuff on the boss counting against the limit, and would reduce 3 hotbar slot requirements (Circle of Scorn, FoF, and Goring Blade). Even just the Alternative Option Shield Bash would reduce one hotbar, making New PLD (with Bulwark) equal to Old PLD (without Bulwark)

.

But yeah, agree that awkward Goring Blade is just...annoying. It's not fun and just feels...annoying.

[Mikey_R]

For me, it'd go along these lines with the changes for Goring Blade in full effect:

[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement][Shield Bash][Goring Blade]
[Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Confiteor][Blade of Faith][Blade of Truth][Blade of Valor]
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement][Shield Bash][Goring Blade]

With Requiescat and Divine Might stacking, using Holy Spirit or Confiteor combo first under Requiescat should be the same potencies ideally. Requiescat is treated as a burst itself, not the Confiteor combo specifically. Confiteor combo would be an aoe burst if used within Requiescat.

So, you want to, again, split the FoF window and Requiescat window? And, by so doing, bring PLD back to what it was before the rework. Genius /s.

Your whole burst phase (which I will assume the magic phase is still the higher damage part) is now out of the raid buffs, which was an issue before, you have delayed Goring Blade, a damage buff, until 8 GCDs in, or 20 seconds into the fight, losing 15% damage for those 20 seconds, because, no reason? You also gave Goring Blade the ability to get more damage off of Sword Oath stacks, however, you would never get that chance in the rotation as they would always be used up before then, not that it would matter as boosting the weaker Fast/Riot/Shield Bash (I am assuming it will be stronger for the combo) would be a bigger gain than using it on Goring Blade anyway.

A common complaint about current PLD is the filler, however, your filler is not exactly exciting either. Most of it is the same combo, Fast > Riot > Royal but the second time, you change Royal with Atonement for some arbitrary reason, I don't know, just to 'change it up'? It just seems weird and out of place, obviously, people might disagree there.

I can tell no real thought has been put into this in regards to fitting it into the current game paradigm and the only thought is in regards to making a clean 24 GCD rotation.

If you really wanted old PLD back, the easiest thing to do would be to design PLD around the 2.5 second GCD, Royal only gives 2 Sword Oaths. That would make a total of 24 GCDs nd you wouldn't have to deal with all these weird interactions that you propose for no reason/just to make something fit. However, we know the old PLD just doesn't fit, so there is no reason to try and continue to shoehorn it back in.

[Kemeko]

There is a difference between a loop and an opener.

Opener examples:

[Holy Spirit][Shield Bash][Goring Blade]

or

[Holy Spirit][Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Goring Blade]

If you're going to argue about raid buff timing, when we still had two burst windows we could use Fight or Flight and Requiescat in any order, at least until they added that magical dot which didn't interact well with Fight or Flight.

Requiescat first rotation example:

[Shield Bash][Goring Blade][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Confiteor][Blade of Faith][Blade of Truth][Blade of Valor]
[Shield Bash][Goring Blade][Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement]
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit]

You can alternate the Goring Blade on the second line to the end, if Blade of Valor was given the same effects as Goring Blade. Also, if Blade of Valor gave 3 Sword Oath, that could also open up options of what you do next.

Royal Authority has a natural cap of 3 Sword Oath, which could be written in the traits. With 3 Sword Oath, 2 being used by [Fast Blade][Riot Blade], you have 1 Sword Oath left, but Atonement does not use Sword Oath in a combo putting you back at 3 Sword Oath again because Atonement combo would give you 2 more Sword Oath. That's where Goring Blade would come in by using Sword Oath in a combo. You can also have Circle of Scorn use a Sword Oath stack for extra aoe damage as a bonus, if you do Royal Authority twice, as an idea.

Atonement changes are not arbitrary, they are necessary. It has been stated earlier in this thread. The same goes for trying to change Sword Oath from 3 to 2 stack, which would minimally lower ppm, and just leave you with less options to recover. I believe the changes I suggested would be labeled as an overhaul and not a revert us back to 6.2 PLD. Just because they look similar doesn't mean they function the exact same, when you look beyond just tell me a rotation so I don't have to think.

Can you write down a PLD rotation with your own changes that works at level 60/70/80/90, that you believe would be exciting? Always looking for more ideas.

[Mikey_R]

How do you differentiate between Atonement in a combo and not in a combo? You could make it so that Atonement gives a sword oath stack if it comes after an Atonement, but that then leaves you at the point where you can spam Atonement. If you don't want that, you would need another buff to track it. Obviously, you do not get Divine Might stacks doing this, so Royal Authority is going to be needed at some point. This then creates a conflict as to what to use. Is it more potency to use the full Atonement combo or to keep Royal Authority and get the extra Holy Spirit casts. It should be a given that getting the Holy Spirits for the burst is a must, it is the rest that is the issue.

Even with that altered rotation, you are now clipping your buffed Goring Blade (assuming the second one is the one getting the fight or flight buff). I have already detailed why this system doesn't work, which I have detailed here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6185834 when someone else made a similar point. I also compared it to Black Mage and Bard who also have similar mechanics.

I asked for a rotation because I couldn't find a clean loop, which implies that you do not over cap buffs over the rotation length. The fact you have given 2 completely different rotations just goes to prove that the system you are trying to implement is not intuitive. Ignoring any issues with buff timings, or convoluted mechanics, this opens up the potential for different rotations for different fights and lets be honest, no sane person will want that.

For me, current PLD is a step in the right direction, where the only major change would be to Goring Blade, the main changes being make it 30 seconds and AoE (details here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6184061).

The main issue with your ideas is that you are trying to add more and more complexity where none is needed. If something doesn't work, rather than going back to the source and fixing that, you add more ontop. You also forgo any thought as to how this would impact the PLD rotation in regards to raid buffs, how could it actually be implemented, do you have combos that are fighting for the same spot in a rotation etc. You will notice alot of my posts are done in criticising ideas or thoughts. I do this to bring another viewpoint into the discussion, poke holes in places where I think it misses the mark, where I think it isn't going to work etc. This is all done in an effort to make you think, 'is this really working as I intended?', 'Was there something I missed?' etc. which then leads to you potentially changing and hopefully, improving your idea.

[Kemeko]

With the 5.0 Pld iteration, there was Fight or Flight, Requiescat, and then a short filler. Was that version not intuitive? Confiteor was your hardest hitting skill, but the rotations usually had Fight or Flight first when starting encounters. Unless you are suggesting people are incapable of handling more than one burst in their rotation. The reason the two rotations are different is specifically tied to Divine Might stacks. Regardless if you choose Fight or Flight or Requiescat first in your rotation, you start with 0 Divine Might, so you can't spam Holy Spirit as much, but damage wise will remain the same because of how the Confiteor combo actions and Requiescat work. If you try to make a rotation where in the end, you also have 0 Divine Might, you are restricting yourself too much. Other jobs also have overcap of resources built in to their rotations, not because they don't want a clean loop, but because of recovery and down time. Using your extra resouces is part of optimization to squeeze out extra damage or mitigation, it's not necessary but it is there to ease gameplay. A job that requires perfect play is a bad job design.

None of the combos are fighting each other for spots, which is why I had Goring Blade, Royal Authority, and Atonement written in such a way. I also had to look at what happens if you alternate them in various orders, outside of someone just spamming Goring Blade continuous for the sake of it. With this version of Goring Blade, you can use it 2 or 3 times depending on your combo sequences with no potency loss, which means it will adapt to later levels when new actions are added.

For Goring Blade, by clipping, do you mean the Royal Blessing buff? It has it written that the timers get added, so even if you have them closer than 30s, it will buff back to 60. If there would be an issue of Royal Blessing falling off before a third Goring Blade, this same buff can be added to Blade of Valor further extending the buff with no loss. Ah, it wasn't expressly written here, but Fight or Flight was back to 25s, to match Requiescat at 5 stacks. Obviously, if we stay with the 20s Fight or Flight, you clip stuff really badly, with my suggestions. Fight or Flight duration has always been 5 x Requiescat stacks, (4 stack of Requiescat x 5 = 20s Fight or Flight)(5 stack of Requiescat x 5 = 25s Fight or Flight). You'd need 25s Fight or Flight to ensure 2 Goring Blade under buffs.

Regarding Atonements and differentiating where you are, there's a convenient flashing of buttons. How do you know you used Fast Blade or Atonement? Because Riot Blade is flashing. Atonement, Holy Spirit, and Holy Circle are always flashing because of current buffs so that's nothing new. They wouldn't flash at all if you have no buffs. If Goring Blade, Royal Authority, and Atonement are flashing, then that means you either used Shield Bash or Riot Blade. If the idea of wanting to spam Atonement when you get Sword Oath stacks is a concern, you'd have to go back to level 60. If you introduce Sword Oath there, you have no Atonement to spam for 16 levels, letting a newer player to easily learn to use Sword Oath for Fast Blade, Shield Bash, and Goring Blade respectively, with Shield Lob and Circle of Scorn as well due to having extra Sword Oath stacks. Players will optimize anything, regardless if the job is simple or complex, it comes down to if you can read tooltips. On that note, I more often than not, see sprout Gladiators use Shield Bash. From the very beginning, you try to use everything you can because you have very little options. At level 26 you get [Shield Bash][Rage of Halone], and the Gladiator level 30 Job quest cutscene shows exactly that. That makes it very intuitive in it's own right.

When I take your idea into account and implement with 6.3 Pld, if you change Goring Blade from 60s to a 20/30s skill, you are effectively taking damage away from burst and putting it in filler. They will not do the same damage, it will be balanced to do much less, or risk taking potencies away from other places, while still not accounting for a clean loop. Potency wise, it would be on par with Divine Might Holy Spirit, at which point it could just be deleted, though that would leave a void in skill gain for [50-60], or turned into an ogcd further alienating it. Also, if you make it 20/30s, the moment you delay it even once, you delay them all, causing them to be out of sync even more with a potential of drifting the rotation. We have enough of that with Circle of Scorn and Expiacion. For example:

Filler Average Potency = Holy Spirit Potency = 350 Potency
Goring Blade (60s) Potency = 700
Goring Blade (60s) Potency (700) - Filler Average Potency (350) = 350 Bonus Potency
Goring Blade (30s) Potency = Bonus Potency (350) / 2 + Filler Average Potency (350) = 525 Potency (175 Potency removed from Burst)
Goring Blade (20s) Potency = Bonus Potency (350) / 3 + Filler Average Potency (350) = 470 Potency (240 Potency removed from Burst)
Divine Might Holy Spirit = 450 Potency

If Goring Blade Bonus Potency is added to Requiescat = Goring Blade (Any second duration) Potency (350)
You go from a button that is at least doing something during burst to relegating it to a filler button, and can be ignored entirely, if it only does damage. You cannot add extra potency without breaking the balance with the other tanks, so the potency has to be spread out or put somewhere else.

I will agree some parts of 6.3 are a step in the right direction. The adding of Divine Might in general, and Requiescat burst doing the damage it was supposed to all this time. However, they should not be combined. For example:

Fight or Flight 25s (Physical) = 10 gcd = 6000 Potency
Requiescat 5 stack (Magical) = 5 gcd = 6000 Potency

Two bursts that do the same damage, but one is more condensed to balance. The moment the two bursts were combined, potency for filler and burst becomes harder to balance whereas before there was a clear distinction, Physical vs Magical.

I always keep in mind raid buffs, raid settings, casual settings, the timing of when skills are learned, old traits, new traits, the direction Devs want to go, any minute meta, potency balance, recovery, synergy with actions and tookit, button bloat which is very much on edge, mp balance, balance in regards to other tanks in both mitigation and damage, and how tooltips are written. If something doesn't work, I always look at the beginning and why it does or doesn't, what needs to changed, added, or removed. This wasn't thought of overnight, it takes months of checking and double checking, as well as keeping an eye out for new ideas to think outside the box. Designing a rotation for a child is vastly different from designing a rotation for an adult, you have to eventually grow up. I do enjoy this discussion though, helps test the design even if nothing new was added. No holes have been poked, it's more along the lines of miscommunication.