Why do melee dps have buffs?

[Ggwppino]

It's a slightly provocative title, but on balance, in my opinion, it's not even that far from the perception I have of buffs. But let's start from the principle of my consideration. Currently the buffs have practically all the dps and 2 healers. Basically having a buff means that this ability is important for the role you play, it is a role mechanic and must be used to the fullest in order not to play the class wrong. Consequently, being a focal point of the work, a buffer to be considered as such, it should use the buff at the best possible timing in order to be able to guarantee the entire party the best possible damage, ergo if you lose big skills of your comp you are wrong to play your job, because your job is also to be a buffer. Well, currently that is not the case. The buffs for better or for worse, with deaths or with less deaths, you use them when you need them, who cares about the others. Why does this reasoning work even if it goes against it? Because the game considers them as accessories to the gameplay and not as a fundamental job mechanic. You clear the content even if your buff doesn't even graze the burst phase of the smn which damn it only has it every minute since the last burst, he can't decide when to do it like other dps, or you clear even if the rpr or dnc doesn't have the resources when you're buffing, even when the game is shouting that maybe maybe you shouldn't buff at that instant there. "The important thing is to do the right mechanics while keeping the right uptime" and if some buffs suck maybe even a lot, all good, you have the clear. Why should I optimize my buff if I still win? Why should I play my buffer role well if I hit a lot, buff my most powerful attacks and clear without problems? In my opinion, speaking of high-end content, the role of buffer should have a much, much higher importance. There should be a complete optimization of one's role to be able to close a HIGH-end content. There should be a study behind it, making the clear fulfilling because I can play my class well. Where playing my class well is not only having the muscle memory for rotation, but also knowing when to buff and thanks to me or my fault, being able to clear HIGH-end content. Well, this reasoning seems drastic to me if we want to apply it to all classes, there are those who should do damage and there are those who should help to do damage, thinking about different optimizations. So, why do melee dps have buffs? Why is the role of buffer only an accessory and not a real job mech?

[CelestiCer]

First off, not all Melee's have Raid-buffs?

• NIN Trick Attack
• MNK Brotherhood
• DRG Battle Litany + Dragon Sight
• RPR Arcane Circle
• SAM has nothing

And I am assuming you mean " Melee's with Raid-buffs? " specifically?

My Samurai has Fugetsu and Fuka. But if we're talking just Raid-buffs? they exist to differentiate Jobs performances and gameplay while giving Square means to Balance Job's personal DPS output and non personal Raid DPS contribution, which also should encourage team-work. Without this? and if we include all jobs as well? they would lack purpose to exist cause aside from Utility? every job will fight to deal equal DPS because nothing separates them anymore aside from aesthetics, slight rotation and gauge/resource spending differences.

Do Players require to properly use Raid-buffs? " to clear content now? No
Ignoring normal content below Extreme's and 1st Week Savage tier, any fight engagement or encounter with an Enrage? needs players to pull their weight or be as weightless as they can be. Players do not benefit by making themselves a sack of heavy rocks, specially not for their own Clear. Learning how to work with Raid-buffs increases DPS output to make the Enrage easier or killing the boss far before they ever reach Enrage, even at times allowing to skip mechanics for an easier (re)clear.

The sad reality however...
Is that some high-end content can have very forgiving Enrages, which can become easier as time passes by into the patch due to accessible ilvl. Which doesn't entice nor force players to self-improve to learn how to utilize Raid-buffs or view it as a requirement " ever ". Very common to see players casting raid-buffs 30s to a full min apart from each-other, even when they never died. And this can come from players who raided up to years longer then yourself. It reminds me of the other mindset...

• Doing Good DPS? doesn't solve Mechanics
• Doing Mechanics correctly? gets you to Enrage

Pretty good mindset sure. But eventually? Players need to do more then AWSD movement buttons to beat that Enrage. So while proper usage of Raid-buffs can feel Lackluster? due to lack of synergy in parties with random players and cause you kinda don't need it to clear the current content available this far into the patch? It rarely hurts to be able to deal or provide more damage. All you can do is do your best and hope players make the most out of the Raid-buffs available.

I do not view Melee's with Raidbuffs as accessories either. I view them as my teammates, even when they are random. I view them as fellow players who might need help with a clear or are there to help me get my clear or farm together with.

[Ggwppino]

Without this? and if we include all jobs as well? they would lack purpose to exist cause aside from Utility? every job will fight to deal equal DPS because nothing separates them anymore aside from aesthetics, slight rotation and gauge/resource spending differences.

I hope no one chooses to play mnk or nin for the buff. Otherwise there would be another problem: If the nin or mnk didn't have the buff, they would still have a different way to play.

First off, not all Melee's have Raid-buffs?
I do not view Melee's with Raidbuffs as accessories either. I view them as my teammates, even when they are random. I view them as fellow players who might need help with a clear or are there to help me get my clear or farm together with.

when will the melee dps use buffs? When the rotation of the balance tells it to. End. There is no active interest in buffing everyone. You use your buff because next gcd is with 1000 potency. And the game encourages them to do that because it's too lenient with the dps check. Does a melee know that if he buff immediately after devour he loses dps from certain classes? No, because he starts the rotation and knows that after the gcd X has to use the buff. Without kidding ourselves, this is the most reasoning I see in savages. Did you know that if, when the fight allows it, buffing at odd minutes (like for example p2s, p5s, p7s) brings advantages to certain classes? Does the rpr gain resources under buffs? Or the dnc? The dnc with all procs + free ones has one of the strongest bursts in the game. Do you know why no one thinks about it? Because the game allows you to clear anyway. Did you know that in p7s if you delay your buff after the interrupt you completely lose the smn burst? The melees after the break start their opener and buff to x when the balance tells them to. And the game allows it because enrage is forgiving. In my opinion there are too many classes that buff and buff badly without enhancing the role of the buffer. The buffer role is another way of optimizing and shouldn't be left to parsers, but should be gratified by the game itself.
And clearly with 10 classes buffing it's a bit difficult to balance. Because the game doesn't expect buffers to do it right, because with all these buffing classes, it's hard to consider it an important job mechanic.

[CelestiCer]

I hope no one chooses to play mnk or nin for the buff. If the nin or mnk didn't have the buff, they would still have a different way to play.

Playerbase prioritize playing a Job based on " what they like the most ", not around a singular buff of a Job. Gameplay may differ with or without RaidBuffs sure. My point was that " Every Job turns into a Selfish DPS? if you remove Raid buffs. " The (possible) teamwork from aligning RaidBuffs is completely deleted this way. And buffing the Raid Buffs is met with reduced personal DPS, that some Jobs might not like.

when will the melee dps use buffs? When the rotation of the balance tells it to. End.

Correct
We both agree that players will not utilize Raidbuffs properly and that Square won't encourage proper usage of it either. We have to figure that out for ourselves and the Balance provides some form of standard for it. This will not change anytime soon. Here's the thing though...

Your expectation is way to High
Player's barely remember to use Feint/Addle. Players can barely do mechanics with consistency without dying. I am a BiS SAM helping non-Static PF parties? where the DNC gives a 615 ilvl RDM Dance Partner. Not to insult players either, this is pretty much the average partyfinder experience. My advice? Temper your expectations... or find an environment that gives you that optimized Raidbuff playstyle. Think of a Static like Parsing groups.

Ideally everyone adjusts and adapts to some degree for each other to get the most out of every Job in the party. It's ideal, but not realistic. Because expecting average Partyfinder to know how to...

• Optimally utilize Raidbuffs?
• On largely every fight?
• For every party comp?

Is just an expectation to high...

[Ggwppino]

very true, people don't even remember when to use mitigations (again, being a mechanic of your job, as you do your positionals or your casts well, you should do this well too). However I wouldn't want this reasoning to apply to anything, ff14 has content for any style of play, however content that on paper should be considered high end, I expect it's not just the mechanics that are difficult, but that everything should lead the player to constantly improve, confronting his own party and really teamwork. You can make me the hardest mechanic ever, but you don't force players to optimize their work to be able to complete the raid, in the end it's just a raid with more complicated mechanics than a stack-spread. But right now, due to the too many buffs there are, the buff itself has no relevant importance in the optimization. Why does a person optimize positionals but not optimize buffs? Why don't people give a shit about checking when it's best to use buffs? because he believes it's a secondary thing (clearly up to a certain point) and he's right, because the game proves him right. The buffers should be a handful and that their contribution is based on the optimization of the buffs, as theoretically since the dawn of time a buffer should do. Buffer work should be a full time job and not a superficial thing like it is now. However when I play I don't expect anything, I am aware that people won't optimize their buffs because the game doesn't push them to. What I don't understand is why there are so many buffs on so many classes, which almost infinitely reduces teamplay and infinitely reduces post enrage reasoning to do. Currently if you've seen the enrage it's because there were too many deaths, not because we didn't play well as a team.

[CelestiCer]

Funnily? Endwalker MSQ provided the solution.
" No more shall mankind have wings to bear him unto paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk" - Venat. Sundering happened, suffering, hardships, and us overcoming it making us stronger. Yet Square has done the complete opposite of what they preach throughout their EW MSQ with FFXIV...

Square Pampered Players
Babied into all content leading up to Extreme and Savage. Zero damage checks before Extreme difficulty. Nowadays? reading Tooltips is a burden to heavy. Players barely know what each buff Icon does, let alone handling Raid-Buffs. Cause there's no need to learn any of this to clear a lot of the content.

Without necessity? players lack reason to master their Jobs
An Environment made of cushions doesn't create resilient players, it does the opposite with players complaining at the sight of any ounce of strife needed to overcome anything. A small portion of Players however? loves Challenges. Ultimate Raiders for example were happy that the Raid designers didn't held back with DSR's difficulty. If there is no necessity? players artificially make them out of desire for it. Think " Parsing and Speed-Kills " heck even parties in Partyfinder with the " Attempting to Solo Heal this Savage " challenge.

But there's a disconnect now...
Jobs used to be more challenging and there is satisfaction in executing Jobs well, even when it's not needed. Because Job complexity provides longevity for a game. Yet recall 1 of Yoshi's famous quotes... " Just go play Ultimate ". Clearly? Square does not want to make the Jobs harder, they are simplifying them. A good portion of payers loved the challenge of just playing their beloved Job(s) well, outside of Raiding. Yoshi and square basically saying if you want a Challenge? they tell you to " Go Raid ". Even though 95% of the game where you otherwise also use your Job's skill-kit? is not Raiding... Thus we go full circle...

" The average Player does not need to learn how to handle Raidbuffs ".
There is just no necessity for it. Until Square actually makes it a necessity or the norm to need to learn some ounce of it? Players will not need to ever improve themselves, and will continue to throw them out at random or whenever they please. And a lot of players who want a challenge and make that leap from Normal nothing burger challenge Content, to at least Savage? will without surprise largely not know how to utilize Raidbuffs. Also a good portion will barely know it's necessity? when Enrage's of Savage content is made laughably easy as time passes by in a patch.

[Ggwppino]

Yes, we are in line with the thinking. But I don't pretend that the game can force me to perfect a high content or I will never win, there should always be the margin of error. Currently with 10 buffer classes, this would be the logic.

If instead there were a handful of classes that use buffs, the situation would be different. You would force the buffer role to do it well, because it's their role, it's their essence and translated for the high-level content so being able to balance the dps check taking into consideration that buffs are used in the correct way. Classes that were actually meant for buff in my opinion are the dnc, brd and ast. The rest have random buffs that they use when they want, because in fact those classes were designed to be selfish. Because pure DPS, which are all melee dps, don't give a damn except to do damage.

So having all these classes using buffs even if they really don't give a damn desecrates the role of buffer that could be gratified directly by the game itself by rewarding the group for being a team player:
We are able to clear because we are also putting the buffer in a position to be able to buff well, on the other hand the buffer undertakes to understand when to use the buffs and establish a comparison with its comp. Resulting in a win-win for everyone and making the high-level content prog and clear much more interesting, which would no longer be based only on doing the mechanics well, but also on actually being in synergy with the whole party.

[CelestiCer]

Currently? " SAM/BLM/MCH " are the only true Selfish-DPS Jobs.

Your idealistic FFXIV as far as I can understand...

• All Melee DPS become selfish DPS
• All Raid-Buffs are shoved onto BRD/DNC/AST

The problems you're creating would be...

• Rebalancing Issues of Melee DPS
• Forcefully Nerfing BRD/DNC/AST personal DPS
• Meta would be completely ruined
• Every Job that loses a Raid-Buff is easier to play
• Possibly harder to play BRD/DNC/AST? And a lot less rewarding
• Loss of Chain-Stratagem requires adjustment for SCH

These changes should fix something
Yet I have no clue what it solves... Square obviously spreads out responsibilities to not be purely on x Jobs. Think mitigation and shielding is not all on the Tank nor healing all on Healers, they give bits and pieces to other jobs and Raid-Buffs is no different. This creates team-work, but also makes it less likely to blame x Job or 1 person for everything of a specific responsibility since its most likely spread.

Lastly? You're potentially going to piss off a lot of BRD/DNC/AST mains that will be forcefully nerfed from Personal DPS due to drastically buffing their Raid-Buff utility. Specially if it's Raid related? when a good majority of those players don't care for Raiding at all.

[Ggwppino]

Currently? " SAM/BLM/MCH " are the only true Selfish-DPS Jobs.

On paper, but precisely because dps melees use their buff when it's convenient for them, it supports my thesis more: they are designed to be selfish, not to be supporters, not to be buffers.

The problems you're creating would be...

• Rebalancing Issues of Melee DPS
• Forcefully Nerfing BRD/DNC/AST personal DPS
• Meta would be completely ruined
• Every Job that loses a Raid-Buff is easier to play
• Possibly harder to play BRD/DNC/AST? And a lot less rewarding
• Loss of Chain-Stratagem requires adjustment for SCH

• that would be a non-issue, clearly you can't just take the buff off, but melee-side balancing was never an issue for the SQE designers. But above all such a drastic change sure cannot happen in intermediate patches,
  so it really wouldn't be a problem, new expansion, new stuff. It would just be a mindset change when approaching content, where the buffer is a class that actually makes sense and is a class that actually has to be respected in order to deal with high-level content.
  
• there would be no nerf since they already work like this, but they only will be more focused on choosing better when to use their buffs, Because the game, after getting rid of all these superfluous buffs, can be balanced in such a way that optimizing the buff is equivalent to optimizing rotation, positionals or casts..
  
• Yes and no, the meta is based on burst phases currently, but since now the high content can be well balanced on the raid contribution of these few classes and not on 10 classes using buffs, their contribution would be made more important with the collaboration of the whole party.
  
• I wouldn't say, melee would play the same and indeed, it would add the difficulty of having to adapt to the party by adjusting gcd and ogcd by delaying them without following the rotation like a robot. This is because the contribution of the buffer will also be necessary because it is valued
  
• I would say yes, they will be led to think how to optimize themselves and the raid dps output by agreeing with the rest of the comp. I would say no, because in addition to the personal gratification of having done one's job at its best between correct rotation and timing for the buffs, there is also gratification in having completed a content thanks to teamwork. *Currently* there is no gratification for using the buffs at the right time nor gratification for completing a content thanks to the collaboration.
  
• maybe a shield healer will give him some more shields to use, In my opinion, the sch is currently paying the shield tax precisely for the insane buff he has. (Also I think the current problem with healers, except for the ast, is the spasmodic spam of only one skill, but here's another story.)

also i would like to add that *currently* dnc,brd and ast are the only ones that i think are designed to be buffers: they are the only ones who are not pure in their role, their mechanics are designed to be buffers, but i'm not saying that they *must* be the buffers or not only them, but currently the others have nothing to be considered as such, because they are not meant to be so.