PLD changes

[True-to-Caesar]

Idk about you guys but it seems these won’t really help much. I’ll give it a try after work but not very confident in the changes. That 2 min meta really sucks.

[Rithy255]

People complaining about Passage of Arms always confuses me.

The community constantly rails against homogenization. When things happen like Overpower turning from a cone into a circle, people say the sky is falling and the era of samey homogenized boredom is here and all skill expression has been removed from the game.

...but then you have abilities that are different, that require things like positioning and understanding nuance and the underlying mechanics - like Wings having a cone, being based on your facing, and with a mechanic nuance in flashing it - and people complain about it and demand it be changed.

Then if it's ever changed, complain how it's "just like Job X" when it WAS different.

In this very thread, people are complaining about Veil being Shake It Off 2.0. But what were they expecting? People have been asking for it to become JUST THAT (affect the PLD, not require a heal to trigger, etc) until it became the very thing they demanded it become...just so they could complain about it now being just like another Job's ability and be upset about it.

I can't tell if it's just people like to complain or people don't realize they're arguing for homogenized boredom and lack the foresight to see that's what they're demanding, only able to see it for what it is once the change has been made and they ruined it for everyone else. Probably a bit of both...

It really doesn't require "thinking" to use passage of arms, it's a annoyance that's inconsistent depending on the fight that's the issue? I dislike "homogenization" but the Divine veil changes were perfect, I don't know who's complaining that it's now less annoying to use.

homogenization isn't always bad it isn't always good, for example I wouldn't find a DPS raid buff where you have to position it a "interesting" and unique mechanic, it would feel awful and clunky to use. Theirs good differences between classes and bad ones, being annoying to use for the sake of being "unique" isn't good design. we should strive for unique and fun ways of utility, rotation, buffs but we should want abilities that are "unique" but in a good way, not in a more punishing way, that feels underwhelming.

[SoraLuna]

Here I was hoping at the very least for the gap closer to **not** be unlocked at level 74...
That "rework" is just a pair-numbered patch tweak to me.

[Renathras]

It really doesn't require "thinking" to use passage of arms, it's a annoyance that's inconsistent depending on the fight that's the issue?

This is literally the argument for every homogenization effort in MMO history.

It's always because something is "annoying" or "inconsistent" etc that causes homogenization to try to make them not that by making them all the same.

Everyone thinks the thing they are asking for isn't the dreaded homogenization. People asking for a Knockback immunity on non-PLDs (only PLDs had it in ARR) don't think they're asking for homogenization. People asking for more oGCD heals for their healer didn't think they were asking for homogenization. People asking for Feint and Addle to work on the other damage type didn't think they were asking for homogenization. No one asking for something to be changed thinks they're asking for homogenization.

I dislike "homogenization" but the Divine veil changes were perfect, I don't know who's complaining that it's now less annoying to use.

No one's complaining it's less annoying to use. People are complaining it's basically a reskinned Shake It Off - e.g. that homogenization has happened.

homogenization isn't always bad

Oh, this is completely true, I agree.

Yet people complain about homogenization. All I was doing was pointing out this is how we get it.

Passage isn't terribly annoying to use. It really isn't. It's one of the few things a tank has now that actually is based on things like positioning - something that use to be a staple of overall tanking. It's not hard or annoying or inconsistent. You simply face where your party is behind you in a stack mechanic. You tap it on. Then you move. There's nothing annoying or inconsistent about that. It consistently works the same way every time, and parties that communicate make use of it. And it's consistently easy to use since all you have to do is face a direction and push a button.

Annoying is a subjective term. Inconsistent is an objective term.

It's objectively consistent, thus it is not inconsistent.

And subjectively, many people find it to not be annoying and, in fact, to be a fun ability. Good design, in other words, that is unique and flavorful as well as being useful and functional.

This would be akin to arguing Sacred Soil needs to be turned into Kerachole because the positioning element makes it bad.

[Espon]

Sounds like things didn't change too much, but I'll reserve judgement after trying things out. I was expecting way worse.

Few things I noticed:

• Fight or Flight now affects all damage.
• Goring Blade is just a straight up heavy attack on a 1 min GD. Hope its animation has become more impressive.
• No more heal required for Divine Veil, yay! Sad that Passage of Arms did not change, though.
• Sheltron and Bulwark are exactly what I expected them to be.
• Looks like we now throw in a Holy Spirit after our single target combo, and Holy Spirit after our AoE combo.
• Magic phase is now always 4 hits. Confiteor and Blade skills are now used during Requiescat instead of after 4 Holy Spirits once learned.
• Clemency is still the same. I do not hate this and am glad it's still the same as it's one of the biggest draws to paladin for me. If you want a bit of extra healing during your rotation, you now have Holy Spirits you can use anytime after combos.

Might see some potency changes in 6.31. I'm not a theorycrafter so I don't know if this will result in more or less overall DPS.

[Bsrking5]

Why did all the tanks get a reduced gcd for tank stance and a button to remove tank stance? Was that really necessary?

[Payadopa]

I don't like Divine Veil. Yet another bit of interplay between jobs gone.

[Rithy255]

Reply to Above: (to ren)
you listed a bunch of good changes, addle and faint changes Good, knockback immunity on Jobs Good, I'm asking for some homogenization because some is good to have. PLD's already pretty unique in the fact of having situationally good abilities like cover, clemency ect. having ranged attacks, I also like the idea of having more utility in raid wides then other tanks, making PAO easier to use would make the job more enjoyable for me despite being "ez". Divine veil was already Shake it off, but worse to use, Passage of arms basically functions as Heart of light or dark Missionary it's a damage reduction, the only benefit is a extra 5% for being on a longer cd and what i find annoying and situational to use, Also because I want *some* things to be more easier to use on PLD I also think we should be looking at the Job's gauge adding skill expression and reward to timing defensives well, theirs some aspects I'd personally want to make PLD differ from the other tanks, but also have some similarities in terms of defensive kits.

bad homogenization would be removing Utility for the sake of every job got to do the same damage, bad homogenization is making it so raid buffs always have to synch up into 120 windows, it's also bad to make the jobs play the same which again making a raid wide similar to others doens't really do lol.

I find PAO a pain to use, snap shot it for people behind you is inconsistent, even the duration is dependent on server ticks, a lot of mechs where using any other raid wide would be better because people don't or can't stack behind you, I really don't think boosting up it's consistency is a bad change, I felt like DV was way more annoying to use but I still just think POA is a pain for me to use, I'd like to use it more often if: "double raid wides" are the benefit of playing a PLD over any other tank.

Sacred soil change sounds fine with me not going to lie, I don't really wanna stand in a bubble. But in general healers need a overhaul and meaningful differences in how they do DPS and support.

[Lyth]

Why did all the tanks get a reduced gcd for tank stance and a button to remove tank stance? Was that really necessary?

I'll have to test it, but I think it was for weaving purposes. There's a slight delay in deactivating buffs that causes them to not function quite like a true oGCD and 'stick' (think old school Cleric Stance). The ideal is when you have two oGCDs to toggle between two stance states, like the old Deliverance and Defiance system. I think the new actions are designed to resolve this, but I hope they share a button.

Edit: I can confirm that it 100% is an improvement over the previous setup. And they share a button.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

What I like:
- Bulwark is a nice re-addition
- Sheltron change is solid
- Veil working without spell healing
- Veil applying to self
- actually using Holy Spirit outside of Requiescat or having to disengage
- Holy Circle integration to AOE combo

Mixed feelings:
- Fight or Flight just being No Mercy now - figured could've been at least creative enough to make it a charge CD with short duration (think Rough Divide from GNB PvP) rather than a generic 60s CD
- Confiteor and Blade combo being Req-HS replacements rather than additions. Preserves Divine Might HS to stay relevant enough, but bugger me is the potency loss steep when you mess it up
- Goring Blade just plain... existing in this state.
- Clemency being unchanged but I resigned myself to this fate by now so okay I guess
- Passage works, but I kinda expected it to be like a 10-15y radius version of Temperance (i.e. mitigation aura with visible wings) with less duration to make up for mobility. Och, well...

The disappointment:
- they missed the perfect opportunity to axe Shield Bash or integrate it into the rotation, it still exists only to serve as Endwalker Derplander Roleplaying trash.
- Cover still being in the ultra nerfed state since 5.0, like jesus at least remove the gauge cost
- speaking of gauge, missed opportunity to make gauge generation interesting and/or decoupling mitigation from it and instead it being used for... Spells maybe.
- despite the increased prominence of mixing spells and weaponskills, still no trait to grant PLD (DRK, RPR) spellspeed equivalent to skillspeed and vice versa for RDM. I am getting really tired of them keeping skillspeed gear pieces to a minimum just to play into this nuance rather than giving us options

I'm still gonna look forward playing it, but man the shadow of disappointing job design keeps creeping on us since 5.0. First Warrior and Dark Knight, now Paladin. I really don't like this design philosophy.