What if Support Role was Added to FFXIV?

[R041]

If you find encounter design dull, hackneyed, or boring; it is not a feeling that is shared across the entire playerbase.

[Raven2014]

It was changed because any legitimate attempt, even, to balance it was apparently beyond the devs and because they axed the systems underpinning a third of its cards. As soon as it went from a nuetral to controversial fact that it was balanced around luck as much as it was about leveraging tools (in no small part simply due to the lack of synergetic features like a CD-less spread or second charge on Draw and a retroactive Royal Road).


Except that's only due to having screwed over the underpinnings of each. If the devs had actually tuned content, stance modifiers, and the opportunity costs in such a way that tank stances could actually be danced (outside of bardic legends of shitshow Savage PuG runs), then external mitigation tools, too, could retain relevance since that lever wouldn't have been made passive. If MP were an actual mechanic in this game, instead of a Rez-Meter, so would Ewer. Etc., etc.

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2 Months ago when I talked about this very same thing, I remember you dismissed and argued against me hard. No, we had 2 round, once at beginning of Nov and another in Dec, over the exact samething.

Remember someone talked about how MP and enmity management should have been refined instead of removed?

Remember someone used the example saying that when you decide to remove one color from the pallet, you lose not just that one color but all the combination of it?

Remember someone kept using the pennies saved up to dollar argument?


That someone ... was me.

And remember someone else argue against that ... ? Well, you weren't the only one, but definitely one of the most persistent of them all. You even asked for my idea of what I would considered a fix for AST ... and I obliged.


So yeah ... no argument with this particular quote ... after all that have been my point for months ... years even.

If MP were an actual mechanic in this game, instead of a Rez-Meter, so would Ewer. Etc., etc.

At some in the long distance past ... it could have been.

[Shurrikhan]

Remember someone talked about how MP and enmity management should have been refined instead of removed?

Yes. And I repeatedly asked you what gameplay you wanted from it beyond it just being a resource that CDs get hit on CD for.

That was, to me, the difference between simply returning to a pretense of an attempt (or, at the least, a failed one) at a given mechanic and making an earnest attempt (one that might actually do as allegedly intended).

I noted that there had never been even a "penny," as you put it, of success, only of promise, let alone adding up to any sort of "dollar," and therefore asked you how you'd want to reconcile the two.

P.S., You can find people actually trying out the details of how MP might be an interesting/workable/as-promised within the last half-hour on other threads. That discussion never stopped; it's still going on without you. It just doesn't so often conflate what could be with what was, nor limit itself to the latter.

[Raven2014]

snip

Dude, you seriously need to stop doing this. If you want to argue with someone, do so in good faith.

If you disagree about it, you can counter it with your own word.

But if you disagree but can't be arsed to put it in words ... just ignore it. I have done so many times.

But you keep posting these annoying large pic/gif meme ... Aside from being disrespectful, it also came across childish as well, and you have done this a lot of time. Tbh this is the main reason I had decided I would not have a discussion/debate/argument with you anymore. But I still feel obligate to point this behavior to you even though I'm not the recipient of it.

But hey, maybe that's just me, if so feel free to just laugh and move on.

[Raven2014]

You can find people actually trying out the details of that within the last half-hour on other threads.

Like I also did back then?

D - Astrodyne stack can give 1 of these 2 buffs: a haste buff that allow more cast, or a % damage buff to melafic but also increase its MP cost. The math should be worked out that while it improve output, it can not be sustained with a zero piety build.
Reason: One: I had said it before, when the role ignore its supposed main 2nd stat (piety) in favor of a non-relevant stat (DH) then there is something really wrong on a fundamental level of the design, that has to be fixed. Two: provide an alternative option that make DET/PIE a viable competitor to the CRT build- similar to how the SpS vs Crit option on BLM. For example: a CRT build would favor to maintain a 2 stack Adstrodyne while a DET/PIE built would prefer a full 3 stack up time. Or, high level of play can have AST juggle the stacks throughout the fight to find the ideal sweat spot between output and MP regen ratio ala ram up for buff window, drop down to conserve MP. (This is my idea of active MP management, not just pressing some buttons).

The "oh you just want another button bloat for to press" or the "this silvie thinking spaming cure 2 100 times in a fight is fun" have always been a stereotype the people on your side of the argument want to super impose "as if" what people like me want, and that has never been close to the true. The core point has always been all of those things in 2.0 and 3.0, as rugged and imperfect as they were should have been refined and expanded, instead of removed. And I remember repeating that ad nausea.

[Shurrikhan]

Like I also did back then?

D - Astrodyne stack can give 1 of these 2 buffs: a haste buff that allow more cast, or a % damage buff to melafic but also increase its MP cost. The math should be worked out that while it improve output, it can not be sustained with a zero piety build.
Reason: One: I had said it before, when the role ignore its supposed main 2nd stat (piety) in favor of a non-relevant stat (DH) then there is something really wrong on a fundamental level of the design, that has to be fixed. Two: provide an alternative option that make DET/PIE a viable competitor to the CRT build- similar to how the SpS vs Crit option on BLM. For example: a CRT build would favor to maintain a 2 stack Adstrodyne while a DET/PIE built would prefer a full 3 stack up time. Or, high level of play can have AST juggle the stacks throughout the fight to find the ideal sweat spot between output and MP regen ratio ala ram up for buff window, drop down to conserve MP. (This is my idea of active MP management, not just pressing some buttons).

The "oh you just want another button bloat for to press" have always been a stereotype the people on your side of the argument want to super impose "as if" what people like me want, and that has never been close to the true.

I already noted then and there the problem of leaving the broader system fruitless/DoA just to try to manage it through tacked-on job-specific balancing nightmares.

And I've said nothing here of button bloat (outside of LD), only of systems existing just for the sake of existing, instead of being leveragable for broadly enjoyable gameplay. ???

If you are referring to my comments months ago on Lucid Dreaming, though... yeah, I'll stand by that. It's just bloat (or, at best, adds a further degree of punishment for being killed off at an especially unfortunate time).

[R041]

Dude, you seriously need to stop doing this. If you want to argue with someone, do so in good faith.
If you disagree about it, you can counter it with your own word.

I do - Pretty often? Check my post history.

I don't care if I come off as 'childish', what are you the XIV gatekeeper? We're on a video game forum about cat girls with a fake housing crisis. At least when I meme it's pretty obvious, unlike most people that just say random shit just to argue and piss people off. lol

It's like you didn't even read the thread, you just post and my meme is the only thing that caught your eye.

[Gemina]

Neither is your love for the present state of healing. Admittedly, we're therefore probably not going to see eye to eye on much that surrounds it.

Alas, this is about support tools anyways. The person you initially quoted asked for healers to have more of them (the intersection here), to which you responded that the addition was already made (despite its only ever having being reduced since Stormblood)... because healing. (?)


Which is it, then? Do you want my opinion, or that of some ambiguous camp of "others"?


You realize, though, that conflating critiques necessarily with some fatalistic extreme of "the MMO community is utterly unappeasable"... is dismissive, right?

I'm not asking to appease the entire MMO community at large across its every game. I'm noting that when development reduces things to its least common denominator alone, by taking the easy way time after time (repeatedly pulling the plug on an area of design instead of rectifying the particular issues behind some given attempt), the result is more often barren than polished.


I haven't argued anything to do with the power of healers. My focus has been solely on gameplay, specifically in what can be done with/around Support tools.

Look, if your stance is to just say the opposite of my own statements, then not only will we never see eye to eye, the conversation was already over before it even began. If you are willing to lessen the thickness of your skull, and actually try to see where my views are coming from, then I will be happy to have a normal adult conversation with you about FFXIV, and the state of support in the game. If you think your focus has been anything other than to undermine my own statements, and regurgitate the echoes of the chamber, you are extremely misled.

Try to enjoy the game in the meantime.

[Shurrikhan]

Look, if your stance is to just say the opposite of my own statements.

My stance is that healer gameplay is not presently in a good state, that healers would be more interesting if they could make better use of downtime, and that their "Support" skills (as this thread and most players use the term) are insignificant and therefore could be a lucrative means of raising Healers' skill ceiling/cognitive load, apm, and possibly variety in use of downtime. If that happens to run the opposite of your own statements... woe is you, I guess?

Perhaps one could theoretically arrive at mostly good takes just by going the opposite direction of yours(?), but, as much as it might shock you, my position has formed independently of your own. That I corrected your blatant conflating of terms ("support" vs. healing done... on a healer) whose differences are essential to the thread at hand, does not make my every opinion here dependent on yours.

If you think your focus has been anything other than to undermine my own statements, and regurgitate the echoes of the chamber, you are extremely misled.

That people may disagree with your takes, or your purposeful changing of definitions / ignoring of contexts seemingly to suit an agenda, does not make them part of an unthinking-yet-conspiratorial echo chamber.