What if Support Role was Added to FFXIV?

[Mikey_R]

First post best post.

People say they want support, but there's nothing to support in this game now that it's been totally streamlined down to this. For example, other games will have mana (MP) actually be used by everyone, for everything, and when you run out you're literally out of options. Some support jobs will exist to feed you more mana, so that you don't run out of options. Can you imagine if tomorrow, every ability and weaponskill in the game cost mp, and melee jobs that lacked lucid dreaming were suddenly reliant on healers to cast a mana battery spell every 30 seconds or something? I bet most of you here would hate it. The whole party system is simultaneously interconnected (everyone standardized on a 2m system) but also feels incredibly isolated and independent compared to other games I've played. You just do your rotation while barely thinking about others around you (from a skill-use context, not necessarily a positioning context) until your 2 minute egg timer pops. People would be absolutely livid if their performance were directly tied to another person's ability to feed them resources so they could perform. We'll never have a rewarding support option in this game, because rewarding support options necessitates having something extremely valuable to support in the first place, and being able to fail and take others down with you if you fail; the devs don't have the courage to bring that style of play into all content by baking it into a skill kit. And it makes me sad, because I loved playing support in better mmos that got it right.

The thing is, we did have something like this back in Stormblood. Bard and Machinist had 2 actions, Tactician and the MP one which I forgot the name of. Do you know how annoying it was, as a melee, to run out of TP before the end of a fight, despite optimal usage of Invigorate? I'm happiny doing my rotation and suddenly, I have to stop because the ranged is either sleeping or there doesn't happen to be one in the party and it was even worse for tanks, well, mainly DRK. PLD could delay running out of TP because magic phase and Warrior did have Deliverance Equilibrium, but they could still run out. It would be a similar situation for casters and healers, with healers having the additional benefit of, if the ranged wasn't sleeping, you could have a ton of MP meaning raises weren't really hitting your MP management (though, if they were sleeping, RIP MP).

So the question becomes, should your ability to perform your rotation be tied to someone else? I would personally say no.

[Avoidy]

You're right, and I said the same thing a page ago

I committed the sin of not reading a thread all the way through before commenting. Support roles were my all time favorite thing to do in tera before it died, and no other mmo has come close to the fun I had from healing in that game, so I jump at the chance to talk about this subject.
At this point, I don't think it'll improve. And I'm speaking broadly now, at just the mmo genre in general. So many games are steering away from the trinity model and creating independent dps experiences where you heal and budget your mana with consumables. If support exists, it's some watered down damage only form of support where you hit a button to make people's damage jump by X%. It doesn't feel meaningful. And that's just where we are now. I hope XIV can be pioneers and lead us back into a golden age of support, but I 100% do not expect innovation from a game that's comfortable staying the course and will have support and approval for doing so. Feelsbadman.

[R041]

If you seriously think disagreeing with people is considered "attacking" then...ok I guess. But thats not what Im ultimately try to do. I tend to be sarcastic or just meme honestly with many of my posts but I still put in some effort to voice my own sound opinions.

That's fair - I just see most of your memes are kinda framed in a way that makes it seem like you want to stifle their talking point. That's just how I see it, I don't know what your actual intentions are you know.. Just like other people wouldn't. :/

[Shurrikhan]

So the question becomes, should your ability to perform your rotation be tied to someone else? I would personally say no.

Your core rotation? No.

But could support be done in such a way as to make it feel like a bonus?

For instance, if normally I have to Twin Snakes every other form-cycle on Monk, but a Haste buff would push me to where I instead can Twin every third, or Demolish goes from every third cycle to every fourth, that'd be something I can leverage decently smoothly, yet wouldn't make my old way of doing things necessarily feel cruddy or "nerfed" by way of contrast. If I normally could get out of a huge AoE in time, but would have to give up a GCD and a half of uptime in doing so, and a support tool could instead get me out in half a GCD, cool. The fight can't just murder me as a form of composition check, but that bonus would feel pretty good.

[R041]

...

Part of me kinda holds out hope, because RDM got AoE shield. BUT I'm also worried because most of our 'Support' is turning into Damage Buff or Defense. So it doesn't feel very innovative after 12 years of XIV. Like I can't necessarily say what would be innovative for them at this point, because they've only been removing and re-gifting to other classes for the past 5 years, while 'streamlining' all of the stats and resources like MP/TP.

I paraded the idea of removing Job + Class combinations in lieu of an easier/streamlined class system overall. But then I realize that it was actually a huge mistake and they should have made adjustments instead of remove entirely. My problem was you'd have to level a whole separate class outside of your Main/Secondary just to get a passive or role ability that we knew was necessary. Then I look at how WoW's Skill Tree is going and realize we're really missing out on individuality, they managed to give them options and make it not a slog.

So I don't really know anymore, and I think 7.0 is going to really tell us if they want to stay on this Shadowbringers copycat path, or try and innovate again like they used to. I kinda feel like we're in a pseudo-maintenance mode considering Yoshi is focusing on XVI, and that makes me sad.

[dspguy]

I'm still a salty AST.

I played AST before the change. It was actually interesting. I don't know how they fared DPS-wise (which is the barometer everyone uses for everything in this game), but it was very enjoyable to play.

[Mikey_R]

Your core rotation? No.

But could support be done in such a way as to make it feel like a bonus?

For instance, if normally I have to Twin Snakes every other form-cycle on Monk, but a Haste buff would push me to where I instead can Twin every third, or Demolish goes from every third cycle to every fourth, that'd be something I can leverage decently smoothly, yet wouldn't make my old way of doing things necessarily feel cruddy or "nerfed" by way of contrast. If I normally could get out of a huge AoE in time, but would have to give up a GCD and a half of uptime in doing so, and a support tool could instead get me out in half a GCD, cool. The fight can't just murder me as a form of composition check, but that bonus would feel pretty good.

You see, that's fine for Monk, because it's combos are so flexible, however, what about something like Dragoon? With it's more rigid combo structure, there is no way you would be able to make it fast enough to get another 5 GCDs in before you needed to refresh Chaotic Spring/power Surge, so you will be clipping the Chaotic Spring DoT early, which could lead to a DPS loss. Then you have to take into account the potential for misaligning your rotation compared to raid buffs, which is one of the reasons why poeple didn't like Arrow/Spear (the other was resource management, using up MP/TP quicker, except BLM, they enjoyed Arrow alot).

Similar things can be said for resource generation. Giving Monk an extra Chakra is different to giving Samurai Kenki, then what would you do with Dragoon? There's just too many potential pitfalls when messing with someone else's rotation that I can't see the benefits outweighing the drawbacks.

I played AST before the change. It was actually interesting. I don't know how they fared DPS-wise (which is the barometer everyone uses for everything in this game), but it was very enjoyable to play.

Completely depended on the party and card RNG however, it went from really weak to really strong. I don't think a suitable middle ground was really found however.

[Shurrikhan]

You see, that's fine for Monk, because it's combos are so flexible, however, what about something like Dragoon? With it's more rigid combo structure

Don't suppose I could convince you that hyper-rigid combos, especially when long, are just outright terrible design and should be changed anyways?

Imagine, for instance, if you could short-change your Full Thrust (or Chaos Thrust), skipping Vorpal (Disembowel) for reduced direct damage (and duration), without their being reduced to 100 potency traps?

Similar things can be said for resource generation. Giving Monk an extra Chakra is different to giving Samurai Kenki, then what would you do with Dragoon?

That one's actually easy even right now. Rather than increasing the resource count, you reduce the cost of the next spender. Voila. The maximum count becomes a non-issue. (See the SAM community's suggestions on how Meditate should have been handled from the moment Iaijutsu started giving Meditation stacks. Again, a universal design improvement that'd be worthwhile even in isolation would also fix the issue of receiving external impacts.)

There's just too many potential pitfalls when messing with someone else's rotation that I can't see the benefits outweighing the drawbacks.

That's a fair concern, but I think it's also an entirely solvable one, often through changes that would be worthwhile regardless.

[Gemina]

I missed the chance to play AST like this by about a month and it'll always make me sad.

Don't be sad. I fixed it:



What not many around here will tell you is that old AST cards were an illusion of choice. Your party did not care for any other card other than the Balance, and you used them only when your abilities used to mitigate the layers of RNG was still not enough to get an AoE Balance to throw out. IOW, the other five cards were compensation when luck was just not in your favor as you always strived to get a Balance drawn from your deck. Even back then, the other roles had their own abilities that function the same as these cards, and some like the Arrow could hinder the speed builds some players would achieve with their melds. They were at best situational, and very niche. It was a mess, but a mess some AST for whatever reason loved dealing with.

Now don't get me wrong. These cards provided strong buffs for the party. However, FFXIV's encounter design does not allow for for such abilities to be RNG based. Their availability needs to be on demand, and not tied to RNG. AST still isn't quite there yet, and the cards are getting yet another rework in 7.0. But it will never, ever revert back to the system it was prior to ShB. FFXIV is designed entirely around damage. The damage going out/received by both party and enemy. Support exists only through this path. AST accomplishes this by being able to give consistent and steady damage buffs to their party members, and is a major part of not only their identity, but also greatly helps make up for their low personal DPS.

[Raven2014]

Don't be sad. I fixed it:

Yeah, 3.0 AST seem to be a prime example of the rose-tinted class. It was changed because it was just a lot of fat nobody wanted. Party even willing to wait for the AST to keep re-drawing until they get a balance card before pull. The current system isn't great, but still a lot better than the old, and the old system would suck even more in the current design then it was back then. I mean ... I'm sure a lot of people know the "Balance" Discord. Think about the implication how relevant the meme was for it to be adopted as the name of such a DPS focus community.

It was a mess, but a mess some AST for whatever reason loved dealing with.

I have never personally speak with any AST "at that time" said they love the card system. That kind of talk has only popped up once enough time had past and nostalgia set in. If they ever bring back the 3.0 card system, I'm willing to bet my in game house the community will not stand for it pass the one month mark.


And I just want to say this: this is yet just another example of how much the game had lost when they remove the majority of utility management from the game and make everything about DPS and DPS only. People complain about AST card are just all damage buff now ... sure, I don't like it either ... but what else you want the card do beside buffing damage? TP is gone. Why do people need MP when they can maintain full MP even in zero piety gears? Outside of ultimate we have enough mitigatition that even if half of your party forgot to hit their mit (PF meme) it's still ok. We already have more healing potency than we ever know what to do with. With how strict raid buff window is most DPS ain't gonna risk having their rotation desyn or drift due to unexpected and unreliable GCD, so giving SPS/SkS card out randomly may even be considered griefing.

Yeah, every card doing the same thing sucks, but that's because there is nothing else that they can do meaningfully.