Why do the devs hate MCH so much?

[Shurrikhan]

I wouldn't even react to him, he is just trolling all over the forums.

He's not wrong, though, that --for the time being, at minimum-- MCH only competes with DNC and BRD.

That "role" has been given protections that push one Physical Ranged to be taken, but that has then allowed the devs to care so little about their balance against anyone else that parties going for performance would never take two.

It's the devs offering incentive to the effect of "Take however many Physical Ranged you want, but the number must be >0 and <2."

[Raven2014]

I am playing MCH since the job came out in HW and since the beginning i had the feeling that the devs do not care at all about this job.

uh, a bit of a disgenuis statement seeing it's the one job that has received the most number of major make over since it came out. They were changed so often that in one of the live a community rep even asked Yoshi something like "you have been changing MCH every expansions, will this be last time?" and Yoshi laughed and answer "I think we got this right this time, probably?", he even appologied to MCH players that the class had been changed so much so often.

Granted, they haven't done a good job with the change, but they wouldn't have put in as much work as they did if they don't care about it. MCH receiving major change was kind of a meme until THIS expansion.

I love the aesthetic of the job but it gets "slowly" really depressing to see MCH always at the bottom even below supports, though MCH is a selfish dps without any utility whatsoever.

Because it has an identity crisis. The only way to make the current MCH more competitive is you have to give it a cake and let it eat it too. It's a selfish DPS, so naturally people expect high number. But if its number is too high than you literally taking a spit at the face of SAM and BLM who also selfish DPS but have way more movement restriction. That on top of a relative simple rotation doesn't help the case. I won't say it's among the easiest job to play, but comparing to the other selfish DPS MCH rotation depth is a joke.

If you want MCH number to be higher, its mobility gonna have to be neft at the very least. Like ... maybe bringing back the 3.0 MCH as a semi-caster, then you can at least argue for it to have similar number to say ... RDM or SMN.

[TheMightyMollusk]

If you want MCH number to be higher, its mobility gonna have to be neft at the very least. Like ... maybe bringing back the 3.0 MCH as a semi-caster, then you can at least argue for it to have similar number to say ... RDM or SMN.

Two jobs with pretty good mobility already?

[Raven2014]

Two jobs with pretty good mobility already?

Doesn't matter how good you think those 2 jobs' mobility are, the point is MCH is still better. And they also bring support/ultility, that's why you have to make MCH to at least have less mobility then them.

[ForteNightshade]

Doesn't matter how good you think those 2 jobs' mobility are, the point is MCH is still better. And they also bring support/ultility, that's why you have to make MCH to at least have less mobility then them.

Except that mobility simply doesn't matter. This has been the long standing issue for years with the Phys Range. Their mobility has virtually zero impact yet is continuously treated as a massive balancing component. Between the ten fights of Pandemonium, and Dragonsong, we have only two, two fights where Phys Range movement is widely superior to Casters. And those two fights (P7 and P8p1) are both hilariously simple for Melee. In other words, the Melee have the same "advantage" Phys Range are supposed to have: mobility. Now you can argue Casters have to plan ahead in P4 or Dragonsong but that mild amount of planning doesn't justify pigeonholing an entire role with lackluster damage. Especially not when they've essentially dragged down the Casters to their level.

On the subject of Machinist and Summoner, specifically. It's absurd to even try arguing Machinist needs to be hindered when Summoner has two bloody casts in a minute long rotation; three if you don't Swift Garuda. Samurai "casts" more than Summoner but we aren't seeing its damage penalized. At this point, mobility tax is a dated concept that simply isn't justifiable. At least not to the present extent.

[Raven2014]

Except that mobility simply doesn't matter. This has been the long standing issue for years with the Phys Range.

Uhm, no. It has only become an issue this tier because the massive hitbox the raid boss have, something that are widely acknowledge both by community and developers. And they already said moving forward this will be recetify. There are a reason the community have always come up with "melee uptime" strat that usually carry more risk to the party. Even this tier, certain mechanic still have optional uptime strat (Ruby 5 in P5S, Exchange 1,2, 4 in P6S), but they're often deemed too risky to be adapted in PF.

I'm playing both DRG and a BRD, if you can convince me mobility simply doesn't matter, than you can also try to sell me a bridge.

[FireMage]

That relies on the bail-outs of arbitrary sub-role assignments, which in turn essentially means that Physical Ranged are the only sub-role a party is discouraged from taking two of.

And casters. Gee it's like fights are made in mind with 4 melee and 4 ranged

[ForteNightshade]

Uhm, no. It has only become an issue this tier because the massive hitbox the raid boss have, something that are widely acknowledge both by community and developers. And they already said moving forward this will be recetify. There are a reason the community have always come up with "melee uptime" strat that usually carry more risk to the party. Even this tier, certain mechanic still have optional uptime strat (Ruby 5 in P5S, Exchange 1,2, 4 in P6S), but they're often deemed too risky to be adapted in PF.

I'm playing both DRG and a BRD, if you can convince me mobility simply doesn't matter, than you can also try to sell me a bridge.

You do realize the role bonus was introduced because the dev team literally couldn't balance the Phys Range, yes? In fact, in 5.0, they were so weak it was actually better to drop them entirely and just suffer the 1% loss. They had to panic buff them prior to TEA's release due to have hilariously undertuned all three jobs were. Bard, in particular, has been an absolute mess since Dancer's introduction. And I really don't know what else can be said about the disastrous state of Machinist over the last four years. All because they've been desperately trying to balance a role within arbitrary limitation. Whether it be mobility, ease of rotation or utility. It had repeatedly led to near constant imbalances.

And we've already seen their "rectification" when 6.25 dropped. They slapped on baby buffs after Dancer once again completely dwarfed its counterparts. Now Bard exists while Machinist continues to rot for another patch as they've already said 6.3 will only have the Paladin rework. In other words, they did absolutely nothing about the mobility tax and are hoping people forget about it.

[Raikai]

uh, a bit of a disgenuis statement seeing it's the one job that has received the most number of major make over since it came out. They were changed so often that in one of the live a community rep even asked Yoshi something like "you have been changing MCH every expansions, will this be last time?" and Yoshi laughed and answer "I think we got this right this time, probably?", he even appologied to MCH players that the class had been changed so much so often.

Granted, they haven't done a good job with the change, but they wouldn't have put in as much work as they did if they don't care about it. MCH receiving major change was kind of a meme until THIS expansion.



Because it has an identity crisis. The only way to make the current MCH more competitive is you have to give it a cake and let it eat it too. It's a selfish DPS, so naturally people expect high number. But if its number is too high than you literally taking a spit at the face of SAM and BLM who also selfish DPS but have way more movement restriction. That on top of a relative simple rotation doesn't help the case. I won't say it's among the easiest job to play, but comparing to the other selfish DPS MCH rotation depth is a joke.

If you want MCH number to be higher, its mobility gonna have to be neft at the very least. Like ... maybe bringing back the 3.0 MCH as a semi-caster, then you can at least argue for it to have similar number to say ... RDM or SMN.

The biggest problem of just a dps buff because it's 'selfish' putting way ahead on the rdps rank, it would literally obliterate DNC and BRD's spots in the phys ranged slot.

As it is nowadays, the best thing we can expect is MCH's rpds numbers be buffed to be nearly equal to the other two... But even that is not enough. BRD and DNC have very useful utility actions for prog groups (especially first weeks) in Curing W, Paean, etc... Why bring a MCH that does the same rdps but doesn't bring anything else to help party survivability?

Ideally on top of the damage partiy with DNC and BRD, MCH needs 2 utility actions.

[Raven2014]

All because they've been desperately trying to balance a role within arbitrary limitation. Whether it be mobility, ease of rotation or utility. It had repeatedly led to near constant imbalances.

You're citing a completely different issue and slap it on as a problem for a different issue. SE doing a bad job at balancing them doesn't mean there isn't a reason for doing them. The reality of the majority of the fight is melee has a set of constrain that range never have to worry about.


If mobility is arbitrary then explain:

- Why there exist melee uptime strat in literally every single tier, including this one. While there is never a range up time strat? 'Cause range don't need it.
- It's common to see a party of 3 range and 1 melee with a 1 range faking melee. Have you ever seen party with 3 melee and 1 range with a melee faking range? I personally never. Now there are have been a few fights where you can bring 3 melee without impacting personal performance, but that's because those fights don't have range mechanic, and they are rare. (Like P2S)

Also, you can't say SMN only have 2 casts and dismiss it as not important. The point is how many cast MCH has? None. Also SMN has 2 attack that requires them to be in melee range, how many attack does MCH has that requires MCH to be in melee range? None. There are time I misjudge the EGI order and end up with Irift when the mech require I'm away from the boss, so I either have to use a few ruin or forgo the 2 melee abilities altogether. Does MCH ever have to make such choice? Never

Sure, we can see them as no difference, but only if you just arbitrary dismiss every difference that's not convenience of your argument.

If Complexity of rotation considered arbitrarily, explain why BLM has constantly been the top DPS despite being a range? And even a good black mage still need some accommodation from the parties to perform optimistically. BLM does pay a range tax, the currency used is their mobility and rotation, rather than potency. This is simply the argument I'm making, MCH, as it is now can not just have a cake and eat it too.

If we disregard both mobility and rotation, are you gonna argue a BRD or DNC should do the same damage as a BLM?

And we've already seen their "rectification" when 6.25 dropped. They slapped on baby buffs after Dancer once again completely dwarfed its counterparts.

No, that's not what they said as rectification. They said making the hitbox as big as they are this tier was a mistake, and that's not something they gonna do again. The problem they're referring to is a fight design issue, not a class balancing issue.