Why do the devs hate MCH so much?

[Raven2014]

And Raven2014, Id like to know what utility/support mch brings to the party? Tactician? Their one and only buff that can not stack with dancer and bards shield. Your example of SMN, has their carbuncle shields, their phoenix support abilities, rez and physick they have more support/utility than mch. Also with how simplified SMN is now, its almost as mobile as Prang. And while Mch doesnt have to directly get into melee they do have to get just outside of melee range for 3 of their AOEs to hit. The devs pretty much stripped mch of their flavor/identity/and support away.

I think you mis-addressed, I wasn't the one who want to to add ultility to MCH. In fact, I'm against it. I only bring up SMN as a parity comparision, but I don't want MCH to get more support ability. I want MCH to stay as a selfish Phys-range-DPS, 'cause that's still a subrole we don't have. The reason I focus on mobility is because if MCH want higher number, they'll need to give something in return, and mobility is about the only thing they have that can be put up for bargaining.

Something like giving MCH a new set of DPS oriented ability like this:

- Encampment: take 3 GCD to set up, the MCH plop down a gun encampment (could be a heavy MG, could be a gatlink, or even an auto cannon, the cooler the better). Once set up, all ability is changed (comestically) to match the regular rotation. The MCH receive a buff (could be potency, could be haste) as long as they use the encampment. Of course, the MCH can't move.

- Decamp: take half a GCD. The MCH abandon (or disassemble) the encampment and resume full mobility, and can attack as normal. The MCH will have to use another 3 GCD to set up if they want to use the encampment again.

- Displace: take half a GCD. Instead of abandon (or dissemble), the MCH try to haul the set up with him/her. In this mode, they suffer the heavy debuff that affects their movement accordingly. They also can not make any attack. However, once in safety, they only need to spend another half GCD to plop down the encampment and start blasting again (instead of 3 full GCD for a full re-setup). This is to encourage the MCH don't just plop the encampment down anywhere, but place it strategically similarly to how BLM would decide to place their leyline.

- Hustle: remove the heavy debuff under Displace mode for 3 seconds, allowing the MCH to move at normal speed while carrying their encampment. Basically a penalty bypass similar to Triple Cast and True North, but come in limited availability and have to be determined when it is best used.


There is, of course a less elaborate way to do this, but the idea is the same: cut down their mobility, give it another strategic/decision making layer to improve output rather than trying to achieve simple parity by just giving the job some random utility "because other classes have it too". If you had read or remember my posts from other thread, I care about class identity and the thematic value of its kit, balance is not just a parity game for the shake of parity to me.

Of course, the math and balance will have to be worked out (again, not my job in case anyone want to ask further). But with this, I think it would be ok to let MCH's number to catch up to SAM, at least in fights without a lot of large/frequent movement, while in a fight that do, of course the melee should have the advantage.

[Ranaku]

snip

I think much of MCH problems come with quality of life issues the job has. Like the weaving which locks half of all players with not optimal ping out anyways cause well you can't double weave with bad ping. I live really close to my datacentre actually and even i can't play MCH correctly on patchdays or when the game is really congested with players.

Also a QoL issue is the aoe actions MCH has, like that you can't move with flamethrower which makes the action almost unusable in most wall to wall pulls. That the queen has no aoe attacks so basically you can't even use your finisher for your aoe rotation. Wildfire also not aoe tho it could be easily. So many mch actions could be just aoe actions to make MCH actually more fun to play in dungeons without even having to change the job design, like it wouldn't even be a major change. Just kinda unfair that we have jobs like summoner who is basically literally all aoe and then you as a MCH have to stand there awkwardly 10s with your flamethrower which is the pinnacle of boredom.

I would be happy if they bring gunmage back and then make you hit as hard as a blackmage maybe when you go into overheat. That would be fun i bet for most of the players. Better than smothering the job constantly patch after patch cause of some ranged dps tax that shouldn't exist anymore.

The reason why i said that it seems that the devs outright hate MCH is cause the solutions and QoL changes MCH could get seem so obvious and easy to everyone who plays the job for some days. Yet SE only response to people begging time and time again for changes are again and again buffs to wildfire and other potency buffs. Which is almost never enough to even compete with other jobs let alone casters. I don't get why they are so scared of seeing a ranged dps for one patch cycle on top, so scared that they have to literally drag MCH everytime to the bottom of the list most times even below the supports. So either they don't know what to do with the job or well they outright despise it by now.

But the worst part is the silence about it, while they talk about buffing other jobs who often do fine. MCH players have to scream and beg while getting kicked from groups for playing the job and then get some small breadcrumbs in form of another wildfire potency buff.

[ForteNightshade]

You're citing a completely different issue and slap it on as a problem for a different issue. SE doing a bad job at balancing them doesn't mean there isn't a reason for doing them. The reality of the majority of the fight is melee has a set of constrain that range never have to worry about.

They aren't completely different issues because they overlap with another another. That poor balancing is a direct result of SE desperately trying to force a limitation that doesn't need to exist. At least not to the degree it does now.

- Why there exist melee uptime strat in literally every single tier, including this one. While there is never a range up time strat? 'Cause range don't need it.

First and foremost, you need to understand people have a terrible propensity of slapping "uptime" on something when nothing really changes. Secondly, the "uptime" strats are often better strats for a variety of reasons. Take Ruby 5, for example. This supposed "big change" has the Melee move up and hug next to the poison. It literally requires no real thought and is actually safer as you don't have three people all clumped relatively close to one another. So why didn't people change strats for reclears? Because PF sticks to week 1 strats and screams bloody murder about change. Ayatori was a downright better strat both in ease and uptime than Ilya. People simply refused to learn it because "why should I? I already know this other strat."

Even in fights where uptime is a concern and adjustments are made in favor of the Melee. That doesn't justify 600+ more rDPS. You openly admit Black Mage is among the most complex jobs in the game. Guess what? A 85% Dragoon matches it. This means a player actively making mistakes in their rotation or outright missing GCDs can still match a high tier Black Mage. It gets even more comical with the Phys Range. All five Melee could go the entire fight missing every single positional and still beat all three. Think about that for a moment. You play at the top of your game, putting in all the work necessary to reach peak performance. Meanwhile, the Monk who's missed 90% of their Snapshot or Demolish positionals does more damage than you.

Is it a small wonder why people aren't playing the Phys Range right now? You're punished for a "utility" which isn't highlight in any noteworthy way while Melee players can drop GCDs and easily surpass your damage.

- It's common to see a party of 3 range and 1 melee with a 1 range faking melee. Have you ever seen party with 3 melee and 1 range with a melee faking range? I personally never. Now there are have been a few fights where you can bring 3 melee without impacting personal performance, but that's because those fights don't have range mechanic, and they are rare. (Like P2S)

If it weren't for the arbitrary party bonus, every single fight in Endwalker, perhaps only excluding Ultimate, would have three Melee. As illustrate above, the damage discrepancy is absolutely massive, and was even worse back in Shadowbringers. A Dragoon losing ten GCDs would still widely outpace a Dancer. The Phys Range literally exist because of the 1%.

Also, you can't say SMN only have 2 casts and dismiss it as not important. The point is how many cast MCH has? None. Also SMN has 2 attack that requires them to be in melee range, how many attack does MCH has that requires MCH to be in melee range? None. There are time I misjudge the EGI order and end up with Irift when the mech require I'm away from the boss, so I either have to use a few ruin or forgo the 2 melee abilities altogether. Does MCH ever have to make such choice? Never

This is a terrible argument because you're trying to justify a massive mobility tax over two casts Summoner is never once hindered by. It can freely change the order of its Legos making it a non-issue. I should know, I played it in P4S. You know what jobs had a hell of a time optimizing? Dancer and Bard. They're actually hard jobs to play well on, especially Bard, due to how rigid the rotation is. And yet they deal paltry damage because oh boy, that mobility lets them get two GCDs during Act II and Curtain Call over the Melee.

It isn't a dismissal but a rebuttal highlighting those differences have very little actual impact. When a Melee can play objectively worse and be rewarded with higher damage for no other reason than existing, tt's a poor design choice. Going back to larger hit boxes won't change that. E6S and E8S were two of the worst Melee fights in the whole expansion. Dragoon and Monk, despite being the weakest Melee, still dwarfed all three Phys Range,

If Complexity of rotation considered arbitrarily, explain why BLM has constantly been the top DPS despite being a range? And even a good black mage still need some accommodation from the parties to perform optimistically. BLM does pay a range tax, the currency used is their mobility and rotation, rather than potency. This is simply the argument I'm making, MCH, as it is now can not just have a cake and eat it too.

Correction: Black Mage was the top DPS... until Endwalker where they were forced to reduce its contributions because they decided to more heavily tax Red Mage and Summoner for their ease of play, ability to raise and mobility. The hilarious irony is Red Mage has the least mobility this tier. The end result has been several panic buffs and having to nerf the last Savage fight because all six Range jobs were too weak. Black Mage was passable relative to the other five but that alone speaks volumes.

If we disregard both mobility and rotation, are you gonna argue a BRD or DNC should do the same damage as a BLM?

... this doesn't even make sense to what I'm saying and is little more than a strawman. If the mobility tax is removed, then jobs would be balanced around their contribution and nothing else. Bard and Dancer would still be the lowest because they have more utility. Machinist would actually get to exist since it wouldn't be weighed down in a role they can't balance. And no, it doesn't need to do Samurai damage. Just maybe enough so if that Samurai forgets what positionals are it can pull ahead.

No, that's not what they said as rectification. They said making the hitbox as big as they are this tier was a mistake, and that's not something they gonna do again. The problem they're referring to is a fight design issue, not a class balancing issue.

Citation needed. They've never said this. Don't take my word for it though.



Above is Omega from Stormblood while below is Omega in Ultimate. Notice how the hit box isn't the same.

Now they may go back on this due to the massive amount of criticism but digging through every interview Yoshida has done since Abyssos released, they have never once said they're reverting hitboxes in the future. The only acknowledgement they've made is the imbalance it caused for Phys Range and Casters. Hence the buffs in 6.25. That was their fix.

[Ranaku]

snip

Not to mention that almost all melee jobs have some sort of ranged attack nowdays with which they can mitigate dps loss cause of getting out of range. Especially monk with his 500 potency dodge attack.

And the funny thing about this is that MCH never was decent dps wise not even when the hitboxes were smaller back then and MCH could attack when melees couldn't. MCH was still at the bottom of the list then so that ranged tax was always just an excuse.

[WiccaP]

I think you mis-addressed, I wasn't the one who want to to add ultility to MCH.

Im well aware of that, I addressed you because you're claiming that mch has to much utility as it is because it is a selfish dps. I just used the two jobs you mentioned as a comparison. MCH has less support/utility than SMN and SMN has become almost as mobile as the range physical category, and has a typically higher Rdps than mch. So the only thing mch actually does better, and only by a slight margin, is mobility. Which you want to sacrifice. To be a better selfish dps, mch would need personal utility, meaning even if you give it only self target abilities and buffs like you mentioned, is still adding utility.

I think you forget that MCH was originally a support job. Its turrets would restore MP/TP depending on which was deployed, a form of party support. They had a knock back, even if it didn't work half the time and they had mitigation. And they could stun, silence, and heavy their target. If you cared about class identity and thematic value you wouldn't argue for a purely selfish dps stand point, because mch wasn't originally designed that way.

The biggest mistake the devs did with mch was gutting the turret system and removing any identity the job had and focusing only on the gun and robot. Now its person doing flips while firing a gun who occasionally summons a robot. Even its core "not gun" abilities like drill, air anchor, and chainsaw are just other versions of their gun. Where's the machinery, the grappling hook jump back, the different turrets that do more than sit out for 10 seconds, the ability to throw up a mechanical ball that splits into pieces like ricochet and creates a shield around the target and nearby allies, the grenade that explodes healing allies within so many yalms, or one that is an aoe damage centered on target.

The queen is supposed to be the mch crown and glory, yet there are no abilities that tie into the battery gauge and there is absolutely no synergy between the heat and battery systems. Why doesnt wildfire also act as an aoe, or why doesnt auto crossbow reset the ogcd of ricochet like heat blast does for Gauss round?

I have mained MCH since HW and I remember MCH before it was the selfish rphys dps. I love the job, its why I still play it even though it is not in a good place and hasnt been since shadowbringers. But by its history, its lore and design, it has always been a support job. If they want to make it the selfish dps, then fine, but it needs abilities, utilities and support to be able to claim that title. Which it clearly doesnt have right now.

[Shurrikhan]

There is, of course a less elaborate way to do this, but the idea is the same: cut down their mobility, give it another strategic/decision making layer to improve output rather than trying to achieve simple parity by just giving the job some random utility "because other classes have it too".

I'd love this.

In spirit, at least, examples look fun, too -- if a bit overly button-elaborate.

In terms of the (highly tentative) details, I might prefer to be able to just leave the gun emplacement in there, and would probably rather it be a flexible CD (Battery spender, for instance) than up all the time, etc., but that's just... details. We're nowhere close to that yet. Sounds good so far!

[Maltothoris]

Here was the whole thing about the whole hitboxes.

From the digest we got

Something we've been hearing a lot about from our players, and have also noticed within the development team, is how ranged DPS jobs (both physical and magical) have lost some of their advantages ever since 5.x, which introduced enemies with large target circles and reduced downtime for melee DPS jobs. As such, we're also looking to balance ranged DPS jobs based on how they compare to melee DPS jobs. Do note, however, that this doesn't necessarily entail adjustments for all ranged DPS jobs, as some have powerful party support effects.

And from the ffxiv reddit discord we got

Y "We increased the hit box sizes so Melee could be hitting the boss without any loss, but by doing that now the balance between Ranged and Melee is off"

So as mentioned before, the buffs in patch 6.28 were their temporary remedy at the moment. Hasn't completely gone by the wayside as we've seen with Criterion Dungeon and Criterion Dungeon (Savage) but the recent raid tier does show far they with go, epseically with the face that in limitless desolation there are no tower spawns in the last round.

[Raven2014]

meaning even if you give it only self target abilities and buffs like you mentioned, is still adding utility.

If that's how you would call it, then it's fine. But the point still stand, I want MCH to have abilities to buff itself - as a selfish DPS rather another party wide ultilioty.

I think you forget that MCH was originally a support job. Its turrets would restore MP/TP depending on which was deployed, a form of party support. They had a knock back, even if it didn't work half the time and they had mitigation. And they could stun, silence, and heavy their target.

Not really, and trust me, I'm one of what probably a handful of person who vocal about MP management, aggro management, more use of cleansing ability. In fact, it wasn't just a month ago that I duke it out with some of the very other posters in this thread. And I was an extremely minority to argue for their usage and have to hold back the majority of people who dismiss those as pointless busy, uncessary things.

If I can interpret your post as someone who appreciate the old system, then you're another person I can add to that group. And right now, the total - including myself - is still a number I can count with one hand. In fact, I used almost the same language your just did when talking about it back then, against fierce resistant I might add.


What you described is not a loss unique to MCH, it is a loss to the game design as a whole with healer and support the 2 roles that suffered the most from it.

If you cared about class identity and thematic value you wouldn't argue for a purely selfish dps stand point, because mch wasn't originally designed that way.

First, because that identity was scrubbed as soon as it appears. Even by SB MCH seems already adopt this image of a gun-slinger style class. Then it seems we're back to a machinist now? But it has been a selfish DPS for much longer than it was a support. Regardless, it has to pick one and go all in. One of the main issue is like I said, it doesn't clearly have a place it wants to be in.


And second, even more so than the healer role, I feel support role is more of deadend. As you had rightfully noted, they had stripped away most things that would traditionally constitute the support role. And whatever role is left are also spread around half of the remaining jobs. Buffing damage? lots of class can do that. Mitigation? That's something literally almost every jobs can do. So ... what is a support class in FF14 these day anyway? Tank is a tank because only them can tank, healer is a healer because you'll need at least one of them for the party not to die to damage ... but support ... what exactly is it they do that the rest of the party can't do?

These day, hearing SE say "we gonna make this a support class" is literally synonym to "we gonna make you suck". Like, looking at the kit, I personally would think RDM actually is a stronger support than any of the current support. But because it's not classified as an official support job, it's allowed to suck less.

IMO, the only way to make Support as a viable role will require 2 things:

- Revive the traditional support system that had been tripping away since Stormblood.
- Stop the conflation where every role do a bit of what should be the job of another role.

Otherwise, the support crown is basically just a king with no clothe.

I had put forward a radical ideal in the past, I don't know if you had see it, but I include here as a reference for where I stand on the issue

Frankly, my problem is not really about healing itself, but more about role indentity. Right now there are so much conflation between roles that it both make it a balancing nightmare and a messy ball of unclear purpose. The Green DPS issue is merely the poster child of the issue, but hardly the only issue. My solution, in full, is actually very radical:

- Take away all party wide buff from DPS. Make them all selfish DPS. They're in charge of their own optimization and no one else. Also, remove stuff like fient and addle.

- Tank should only be in charge of personal defensive cool down, and maybe debuff the boss. They should not be double up duty to party wide mitigation.

- Support classes (p.range) should have the exclusive job as buffing the party, they should be the only one with party wide buffs.

- Remove majority if not all but the most basic self healing (i.e second wind) from all classes.

- Healers should be exclusive in charge of healing and raid wide mitigation.


I feel this way you can amp up the complexity and difficulty for each "role" that is unique to them. Instead of this melting pots "everyone does everything just some better than the others with DPS the only true go to".

As you can see, my previous example of the change to MCH is inline with this.

[Lieri]

Mch:
- Need low ping to play optimally
- Rdps that doesnt buff raid dps
- Mediocre individual damage

Its core design is flawed. Need a massive rework. Too reliant on latency and by the end of the day its mediocre as a dps.

[TheMightyMollusk]

I think you mis-addressed, I wasn't the one who want to to add ultility to MCH. In fact, I'm against it. I only bring up SMN as a parity comparision, but I don't want MCH to get more support ability. I want MCH to stay as a selfish Phys-range-DPS, 'cause that's still a subrole we don't have. The reason I focus on mobility is because if MCH want higher number, they'll need to give something in return, and mobility is about the only thing they have that can be put up for bargaining.

Right now, MCH has the same mobility as the other ranged jobs (arguably less, as they have no mobility skills), no utility to speak of, AND lower damage, both personal and raid. Why do they have to "give up" anything just to be brought up to par?