Why do the devs hate MCH so much?

[WiccaP]

I think you mis-addressed, I wasn't the one who want to to add ultility to MCH.

Im well aware of that, I addressed you because you're claiming that mch has to much utility as it is because it is a selfish dps. I just used the two jobs you mentioned as a comparison. MCH has less support/utility than SMN and SMN has become almost as mobile as the range physical category, and has a typically higher Rdps than mch. So the only thing mch actually does better, and only by a slight margin, is mobility. Which you want to sacrifice. To be a better selfish dps, mch would need personal utility, meaning even if you give it only self target abilities and buffs like you mentioned, is still adding utility.

I think you forget that MCH was originally a support job. Its turrets would restore MP/TP depending on which was deployed, a form of party support. They had a knock back, even if it didn't work half the time and they had mitigation. And they could stun, silence, and heavy their target. If you cared about class identity and thematic value you wouldn't argue for a purely selfish dps stand point, because mch wasn't originally designed that way.

The biggest mistake the devs did with mch was gutting the turret system and removing any identity the job had and focusing only on the gun and robot. Now its person doing flips while firing a gun who occasionally summons a robot. Even its core "not gun" abilities like drill, air anchor, and chainsaw are just other versions of their gun. Where's the machinery, the grappling hook jump back, the different turrets that do more than sit out for 10 seconds, the ability to throw up a mechanical ball that splits into pieces like ricochet and creates a shield around the target and nearby allies, the grenade that explodes healing allies within so many yalms, or one that is an aoe damage centered on target.

The queen is supposed to be the mch crown and glory, yet there are no abilities that tie into the battery gauge and there is absolutely no synergy between the heat and battery systems. Why doesnt wildfire also act as an aoe, or why doesnt auto crossbow reset the ogcd of ricochet like heat blast does for Gauss round?

I have mained MCH since HW and I remember MCH before it was the selfish rphys dps. I love the job, its why I still play it even though it is not in a good place and hasnt been since shadowbringers. But by its history, its lore and design, it has always been a support job. If they want to make it the selfish dps, then fine, but it needs abilities, utilities and support to be able to claim that title. Which it clearly doesnt have right now.

[Raven2014]

meaning even if you give it only self target abilities and buffs like you mentioned, is still adding utility.

If that's how you would call it, then it's fine. But the point still stand, I want MCH to have abilities to buff itself - as a selfish DPS rather another party wide ultilioty.

I think you forget that MCH was originally a support job. Its turrets would restore MP/TP depending on which was deployed, a form of party support. They had a knock back, even if it didn't work half the time and they had mitigation. And they could stun, silence, and heavy their target.

Not really, and trust me, I'm one of what probably a handful of person who vocal about MP management, aggro management, more use of cleansing ability. In fact, it wasn't just a month ago that I duke it out with some of the very other posters in this thread. And I was an extremely minority to argue for their usage and have to hold back the majority of people who dismiss those as pointless busy, uncessary things.

If I can interpret your post as someone who appreciate the old system, then you're another person I can add to that group. And right now, the total - including myself - is still a number I can count with one hand. In fact, I used almost the same language your just did when talking about it back then, against fierce resistant I might add.


What you described is not a loss unique to MCH, it is a loss to the game design as a whole with healer and support the 2 roles that suffered the most from it.

If you cared about class identity and thematic value you wouldn't argue for a purely selfish dps stand point, because mch wasn't originally designed that way.

First, because that identity was scrubbed as soon as it appears. Even by SB MCH seems already adopt this image of a gun-slinger style class. Then it seems we're back to a machinist now? But it has been a selfish DPS for much longer than it was a support. Regardless, it has to pick one and go all in. One of the main issue is like I said, it doesn't clearly have a place it wants to be in.


And second, even more so than the healer role, I feel support role is more of deadend. As you had rightfully noted, they had stripped away most things that would traditionally constitute the support role. And whatever role is left are also spread around half of the remaining jobs. Buffing damage? lots of class can do that. Mitigation? That's something literally almost every jobs can do. So ... what is a support class in FF14 these day anyway? Tank is a tank because only them can tank, healer is a healer because you'll need at least one of them for the party not to die to damage ... but support ... what exactly is it they do that the rest of the party can't do?

These day, hearing SE say "we gonna make this a support class" is literally synonym to "we gonna make you suck". Like, looking at the kit, I personally would think RDM actually is a stronger support than any of the current support. But because it's not classified as an official support job, it's allowed to suck less.

IMO, the only way to make Support as a viable role will require 2 things:

- Revive the traditional support system that had been tripping away since Stormblood.
- Stop the conflation where every role do a bit of what should be the job of another role.

Otherwise, the support crown is basically just a king with no clothe.

I had put forward a radical ideal in the past, I don't know if you had see it, but I include here as a reference for where I stand on the issue

Frankly, my problem is not really about healing itself, but more about role indentity. Right now there are so much conflation between roles that it both make it a balancing nightmare and a messy ball of unclear purpose. The Green DPS issue is merely the poster child of the issue, but hardly the only issue. My solution, in full, is actually very radical:

- Take away all party wide buff from DPS. Make them all selfish DPS. They're in charge of their own optimization and no one else. Also, remove stuff like fient and addle.

- Tank should only be in charge of personal defensive cool down, and maybe debuff the boss. They should not be double up duty to party wide mitigation.

- Support classes (p.range) should have the exclusive job as buffing the party, they should be the only one with party wide buffs.

- Remove majority if not all but the most basic self healing (i.e second wind) from all classes.

- Healers should be exclusive in charge of healing and raid wide mitigation.


I feel this way you can amp up the complexity and difficulty for each "role" that is unique to them. Instead of this melting pots "everyone does everything just some better than the others with DPS the only true go to".

As you can see, my previous example of the change to MCH is inline with this.