Please stop removing Damage Over Time effects from every job, add more complexity

[Melethron123]

It's certainly not going to be any less complex given the same contexts that would allow for a buff to be interesting (e.g., Twin Snakes at sufficient Skill Speed, rather than Disembowel; Stormblood SAM more so than Shadowbringers/Endwalker), as it's just taking something already capable of a fair bit of contextual nuance and simply adding another layer to work with.

you're right in saying that perma-buffs are equally as interesting as perma-dots, since both are very uninteresting. at the end of the day, they just exist to force DRG MNK and PLD to press the "other combo" without having to design interesting skills or interactions.

[VentVanitas]

at the end of the day, they just exist to force DRG MNK and PLD to press the "other combo" without having to design interesting skills or interactions.

What MNK has is fine, and forcing any other change on Twin Snakes/Demolish from the same people that work with the mindset of "idk what to do so let's just delete it" will only lead to disaster. Let's just leave literally the least problematic aspect of MNK (barring Dragon Kick) alone, yeah?

[Shurrikhan]

you're right in saying that perma-buffs are equally as interesting as perma-dots, since both are very uninteresting. at the end of the day, they just exist to force DRG MNK and PLD to press the "other combo" without having to design interesting skills or interactions.

A fixed combo (de)buff is dull, yes. See Disembowel or Chaos Thrust in single-target.

Demolish, though, is not that. Nor would any other (de)buff need to be. And you're still arguing to replace something able to carry contextual nuance with... absolutely nothing?

Again, there's nothing mutually exclusive about any form of soft CD, be it buff, debuff (just an extra layer of complexity), or prorated ability, and complexity elsewhere. On the contrary, more flexible anchors like soft CDs tend to be better able to leverage and/or interact with complexity elsewhere. They just can't, by themselves, fix a stale/inflexible rotation.

[Nizzi]

wait until you hear about people who think refreshing dots is complex

Thunder III is quite literally more complex than anything any other non-BLM job has

[Payadopa]

The funny thing is, as much as I dislike DoTs I like it on RPR. They aren't that dissimilar. I think the difference for me is that once it goes below 30 I at least have the option of when to apply another 30 seconds. I find that more engaging. I'm fine with a dedicated job for DoTs but the rest should just be replaced with something interesting.

[Melethron123]

Thunder III is quite literally more complex than anything any other non-BLM job has

if you think forcing procs with an ogcd that holds 2 charges and has a cooldown equal to the dot's duration is complex, sure

[Shurrikhan]

if you think forcing procs with an ogcd that holds 2 charges and has a cooldown equal to the dot's duration is complex, sure

Sharpcast is clearly not what's being referred to. Thunder's complexity comes from the varying net value of the cast based on upcoming uptime.

And it, too, offered more complexity and agency in the past when you could use any of three durations and cast times in order to minimize lower-value time spent and maximize portion of higher-value time spent (e.g., within Astral Fire, or with old no-AF-refresh F4 spams, ARR quick-Flare, etc.) -- part of the reason why many requested it be turned into a quantized charged-up cast (e.g., charging up to a total of a 2.0, 2.5, or 3.0s cast), as seen in some other MMOs, instead of just being turned into a single option when its button count was consolidated.

[Nizzi]

if you think forcing procs with an ogcd that holds 2 charges and has a cooldown equal to the dot's duration is complex, sure

It's very telling when you try to be reductive instead of offering something you think is complex instead as a counterargument

[Sparkthor]

Or maybe just consider that all rotations are and were relativly easy to pull and complexity went more from bosses and their mechanics ? In top on complexity being a subjective thing.
With few guides and some training everybody is able to do correct things on a dummy. It's not like FFXIV needs miliseconds perfects thing to pull off the max of everyjobs.

[ForsakenRoe]

Or maybe just consider that all rotations are and were relativly easy to pull and complexity went more from bosses and their mechanics ? In top on complexity being a subjective thing.
With few guides and some training everybody is able to do correct things on a dummy. It's not like FFXIV needs miliseconds perfects thing to pull off the max of everyjobs.

isn't that the problem people are trying to illustrate? that the complexity is all coming from the bosses and not the classes, thus making lower level content feel boring, because it doesnt contain enough complexity to make it interesting?
also making classes complex for the sake of complex is not what most people are after (i hope), i want to see classes that have low skill floor, high skill ceiling, so we can seek the complexity if we want to, but casual players aren't screwed over by their class requiring some gigabrain understanding