Please stop removing Damage Over Time effects from every job, add more complexity

[Absurdity]

People seem to be conflating busy with difficult or punishing, HW DRG wasn't busier, it was more punishing. Missing positionals led to a significant potency loss and rotational mistakes could easily end up with you dropping Blood of the Dragon, leading to an even higher dps loss.

Current Dark Knight is incredibly busy during burst phases, but that doesn't make it difficult just because you have to spam a lot of oGCDs.

[ForsakenRoe]

'complexity is when many ogcd in burst window, the more ogcd the more complexity'

[Commander_Justitia]

The issue is, back when scholar/whm etc. had many dots, you started fighting a boss in a raid or openworld scenario (eureka, BA etc.) and the dots didnt apply; it would show something like "Thunder III - No effect" as if the mob would be resisting it, simply because the maximum number of dots has been reached on that mob. Thus your damage didn't even contribute to killing that mob. Then they started removing dots over dots. Now it is basically helping them maintain a healthy level of debuff/dots so they can display enough other stuff on the screen.

[Shurrikhan]

People seem to be conflating busy with difficult or punishing, HW DRG wasn't busier, it was more punishing. Missing positionals led to a significant potency loss and rotational mistakes could easily end up with you dropping Blood of the Dragon, leading to an even higher dps loss.

That's not necessarily a conflation; the posts just claimed, as is very easily argued, that HW DRG happened to be both.

You had faintly higher oGCD density, slightly more decision-making, and couldn't so automate your positionals. The positionals could be just 20 potency bonuses each and, so long as most DRGs would opt to them, the way BotD worked then would still leave it a busier job due to a combination of apm and watching and leveraging one's remaining BotD duration and CD to spend towards Geirskogul keeping you more on your toes.

Not a better designed one. Not even necessarily a more difficult one. But a slightly busier one, independent of its being more punishing.

[Melethron123]

'complexity is when many ogcd in burst window, the more ogcd the more complexity'

wait until you hear about people who think refreshing dots is complex

[AlexaAura]

Could not agree more with the Original poster. Summoner was my main dps class, I loved that it was complex and that you had to maintain the dots, then they reworked it and i never play it now. Now they are reworking paladin and removing it's dots as well. Very disappointed.

[Shurrikhan]

wait until you hear about people who think refreshing dots is complex

No one has ever said this.

Though, as with any not innately synced buff or cooldown with a decent bit of context, making optimal choices and tracking additional considerations, yes, adds complexity.



A DoT/debuffing GCD is just a soft CD (much like any buffing GCD) with additional considerations based on target count.

It's certainly not going to be any less complex given the same contexts that would allow for a buff to be interesting (e.g., Twin Snakes at sufficient Skill Speed, rather than Disembowel; Stormblood SAM more so than Shadowbringers/Endwalker), as it's just taking something already capable of a fair bit of contextual nuance and simply adding another layer to work with.

[dspguy]

Possibly the closest we've had to "complex application of DoTs" is BRD before they started increasing the duration of Caustic/Stormbite up to 45s. While reapplying wasn't complex, but you wanted to work backwards to time your DoTs so ideally you'd be refreshing Iron Jaws in that 2-0s window so you get the extra tick while also landing it on some sort of beneficial buff - whether it be a self-buff (RS) or a group buff (like chain). Or you'd have to do a fight long enough to figure out that since the boss jumps at a certain time, it might make sense to let IJ drop entirely since you wouldn't get enough ticks.

When there were less ticks per DoT, getting that last tick became more important. However, they dropped the potency of Caustic/Stormbite back in ShB (if I recall?). So while it is nice to get that last tick, the DPS loss is smaller. Of course, you'd rather land IJ a tick early than have to spend 1 extra GCD reapply both DoTs individually.

[Marxam]

wait until you hear about people who think refreshing dots is complex

wait until you hear about people saying that pressing buttons is complicated.

[Shurrikhan]

Possibly the closest we've had to "complex application of DoTs" is BRD before they started increasing the duration of Caustic/Stormbite up to 45s. While reapplying wasn't complex, but you wanted to work backwards to time your DoTs so ideally you'd be refreshing Iron Jaws in that 2-0s window so you get the extra tick while also landing it on some sort of beneficial buff - whether it be a self-buff (RS) or a group buff (like chain). Or you'd have to do a fight long enough to figure out that since the boss jumps at a certain time, it might make sense to let IJ drop entirely since you wouldn't get enough ticks.

When there were less ticks per DoT, getting that last tick became more important. However, they dropped the potency of Caustic/Stormbite back in ShB (if I recall?). So while it is nice to get that last tick, the DPS loss is smaller. Of course, you'd rather land IJ a tick early than have to spend 1 extra GCD reapply both DoTs individually.

I'd argue nearly the opposite, especially since moving past the 18s duration and having lost any notable crit synergy (Internal Release nerfs/removal) or more desireable conditions for reapplication (e.g., HW Wanderer's Minuet stance).

The opportunity cost Iron Jaws added to letting DoTs drop for even a moment made the timing that much less flexible, which ended up making opportunities to leverage Bard's DoTs interestingly all the fewer than, say, Lead Shot, Fracture, or Mutilate, and since it was an open action, the added punishment for letting either DoT drop didn't amount to anything, gameplay-wise. Apart from delaying for a single GCD more of Heavy Shot after Aimed Shot, one couldn't actually do anything with that idea of "working backward" from a desired moment of reapplication, and once at a 30s duration (now an absurd 45s), those durations synced up automatically anyways.

It was close to doing a decent bit well, but it shortchanged itself.

However, they dropped the potency of Caustic/Stormbite back in ShB (if I recall?).

They did indeed, bringing our sustained multi-DoT damage a fair bit closer to our single-target and deemphasizing the costs of trimming DoT ticks.