PLD changes; thoughts?

[Lyth]

I don't really think that the 'two minute meta' was the problem. If it was just a matter of damage output, then that would have been iteratively addressed with potencies. The real problem is that players were using the age old 'complexity' argument to justify why PLD should have a dps advantage over the other tanks, in a throwback to its Stormblood launch glory days. It's unsurprising that this is the result. GLD and MRD are the two tank classes that complete beginners have access to on booting up the game for the first time, and if the 'general perception' is that they're 'too complex', then that's a problem. You're deterring new players from tanking.

The dps will likely be rebalanced anyways. But the primary goal of this rework is accessibility. And if you were satisfied with the level of 'challenge' that the job previously provided, you can thank this very subforum for wielding the Monkey's Paw in such a spectacularly predictable fashion.

That being said, I think PLD did need a second look. Some design elements like DV's activation were just clunky, and others are just vestigial (i.e. Shield Bash, as you've mentioned). While DV itself is simple to fix (just make it activate like Shake), I think that it's hard to justify the additional raidwide mitigation tool over other tanks, especially when you consider how important those raidwides can be. And they're likely going to be looking at ways to bring button counts back to the average, rather than keep them inflated.

[Rithy255]

It was generally 2 minute "meta" that changed the PLD, as they saw it not really perform under raid buffs as well, to be fair they would have likely at least made adjustments to PLD's defensives as they're very lacking either way, but I feel like they woulda changed PLD sooner if they had more plans to (I just feel like the 2 minute meta painted a big red rework here sign on PLDS back).

I think PLD's likely to keep their raid wides still, while it would be strong it's not outright busted, keep in PLD does actually suffer from still having the longest invul in the game (unless they change that), I think divine veil is a safe bet that it will stay, passage of arms seems to be a bit harder to rework into a functional ability, I don't really know though again i think they could just borrow a bit from white mage here, either way I think we will still have two raid wides, could be totally wrong here, but I don't think PLD would even need a reduction in raid wides. Though I could just see them remove passage of arms if they really felt like PLD would be too good? I don't know really doesn't seem needed.

I think they will be making space theirs so many things they will remove for "bloat reasons" before raid wides, Shield bash? likely gone, cover might be reworked or removed (finally it just needs something?), cutting down on hotbar actions by merging (such as req turning into confit, holy spirit cleaving, Holy shelltron/intervention merge) I could at least think of 4-5 abilities that would/could be done before cutting down actually important stuff to the job.

I don't mind the changes too much from what we've seen (I'm indeed not a PLD spreedsheet gamer sadly) personally, I'm pretty sad that dots are gone, I just hope atonement and alternating combos aren't gone, I like PLD's for its general different combos and buttons, while PLD is currently a bit strict and set it's also very varied in how it feels compared to something like war/drk, I understand the rework and if they want to add stuff like holy spirits mid rotation and try things that might give it a more "lose" feel I'm fine with it aslong as it feels fun and enjoyable, but at the same time I do worry if the rework does feel the same as other tanks, Not to mention i felt like PLD's identity as a "shield tank" really didn't feel right being so weak defensively

[Gserpent]

That being said, I think PLD did need a second look. Some design elements like DV's activation were just clunky, and others are just vestigial (i.e. Shield Bash, as you've mentioned). While DV itself is simple to fix (just make it activate like Shake), I think that it's hard to justify the additional raidwide mitigation tool over other tanks, especially when you consider how important those raidwides can be. And they're likely going to be looking at ways to bring button counts back to the average, rather than keep them inflated.

Maybe a hot take, but I don't think stuff like Shield Bash should be removed. I think it's perfectly fine to have buttons that have no application to raid gameplay, because removing those buttons removes opportunities to find uses for them in non-raid gameplay. Criterion is an opportunity to have trash etc that are actually enjoyable to deal with, but they *can't* really do that due to the lack of utility among most classes.

[RyuuZero]

because removing those buttons removes opportunities

as a Samurai Player, this is my Main Problem with FFXIV's current Gameplay Direction. But I don't wanna comment here with that wash right now.
Imo I thought they just would remove FoF and Req, turn them into Traits, getting a flatout stronger 1-2-3 Combo and the Removal of Cast Times.
though I love the Confiteur Combo (of course), I'm not really a fan of pressing the same Button 4times (because I already do this in the combat macros, I written myself and are oGCDs unlike the Confiteur Combo which are GCDs...)
.. so why not Press Confiteur and after that the 1-2-3 Combo turns into the Valor Combo.. oh and another thing I noticed that the Valor DoT and Scorn DoT working side by side and the Goring DoT and the Scorn DoT working side by side.. but Goring and Valor!? NOPE!.. clunky.. well the Goring and Valor DoTs getting gutted so I better sell my ideas to some fanfic author or something.. another thing I'm thinking about was why Spirits Within doesn't share the Cool Down with Scorn?.. well okay since Spirits has become Expiacion it's kind of like Circle of Scorn without the DoT.. huh.. well imo Expiacion is a redundant Skill.. but as Tanks we do not really need to care about Single Target/AoE Situations so I think that's why they turned a Single Target Skill into an AoE Skill.. and yeah I agree that DV should just work like Shake, it's kinda cute that you have to activate it by getting healed but not even recieving the def cd as the Caster was stupid..

Sorry for my Paladin Change fanfiction, but I felt like writting something.

[fulminating]

.. oh and another thing I noticed that the Valor DoT and Scorn DoT working side by side and the Goring DoT and the Scorn DoT working side by side.. but Goring and Valor!? NOPE!.. clunky..

Isn’t that just because the blade combo occupies the gcds where you reapply goring in the shadowbringers rotation? CoS is entirely separate.

[Absurdity]

Isn’t that just because the blade combo occupies the gcds where you reapply goring in the shadowbringers rotation? CoS is entirely separate.

Pretty much. I have no idea why people complained about the Goring and Valor DoT not stacking, the blade combo literally just replaced the goring combo you would've normally done after confiteor.

[RyuuZero]

Isn’t that just because the blade combo occupies the gcds where you reapply goring in the shadowbringers rotation? CoS is entirely separate.

yeah that might be true, I use FoF to boost CoS and Spirits Within Expiacion because those are physical+ have the same Cool Down and funnily I used up all my MP in Shadowbringers, just so I could go back to the 1-2-3 Combo and build MP until Req is back. Now I play PLD like this: have MP? Req+ HolySpam into Confiteor into Blades, out of MP? FoF+CoS+Expiacion+Goring Combo into 1-2-3 Combo into AtonementSpam and another Goring Combo to have a DoT while I do the Req Combo. Which works for me on Paper but in practice I still end up having MP after Blades, so I continue Spamming Holy Spirit, looking like a Caster (but Blue Mage can't be a Tank.. huh..) until I have no MP anymore.. the upcomming Problem for me is at that Point my Req is Back but I have no MP so I do the FoF Stuff while Req sits ready to use ._. it's just nitpicking from my side though it's all good, but true I had an easier time with the PLD rotation in Shadowbringers, funnily.

[ForsakenRoe]

yeah that might be true, I use FoF to boost CoS and Spirits Within Expiacion because those are physical+ have the same Cool Down and funnily I used up all my MP in Shadowbringers, just so I could go back to the 1-2-3 Combo and build MP until Req is back. Now I play PLD like this: have MP? Req+ HolySpam into Confiteor into Blades, out of MP? FoF+CoS+Expiacion+Goring Combo into 1-2-3 Combo into AtonementSpam and another Goring Combo to have a DoT while I do the Req Combo. Which works for me on Paper but in practice I still end up having MP after Blades, so I continue Spamming Holy Spirit, looking like a Caster (but Blue Mage can't be a Tank.. huh..) until I have no MP anymore.. the upcomming Problem for me is at that Point my Req is Back but I have no MP so I do the FoF Stuff while Req sits ready to use ._. it's just nitpicking from my side though it's all good, but true I had an easier time with the PLD rotation in Shadowbringers, funnily.

They changed MP cost of Holy Spirit because in SHB, if you were forced away from the boss, you would lose uptime of regenerating MP via Riot Blade, and potentially end up at your Req window with below 80% (meaning Req's effect didnt trigger). Now you only need 5000 MP to do your Confiteor thing, the other 5000 is not there to be spammed away with naked Holy Spirits (they're 300 potency, equal to combo'd Riot Blade), it's there as insurance, and a way to have 'some MP spare for Clemency if its really needed' without gimping your Req window. Hardcasting Holy Spirits without Req does really bad damage, messes with your MP management, and misaligns your 60s loop pretty bad from raidbuffs

[Mikey_R]

yeah that might be true, I use FoF to boost CoS and Spirits Within Expiacion because those are physical+ have the same Cool Down and funnily I used up all my MP in Shadowbringers, just so I could go back to the 1-2-3 Combo and build MP until Req is back. Now I play PLD like this: have MP? Req+ HolySpam into Confiteor into Blades, out of MP? FoF+CoS+Expiacion+Goring Combo into 1-2-3 Combo into AtonementSpam and another Goring Combo to have a DoT while I do the Req Combo. Which works for me on Paper but in practice I still end up having MP after Blades, so I continue Spamming Holy Spirit, looking like a Caster (but Blue Mage can't be a Tank.. huh..) until I have no MP anymore.. the upcomming Problem for me is at that Point my Req is Back but I have no MP so I do the FoF Stuff while Req sits ready to use ._. it's just nitpicking from my side though it's all good, but true I had an easier time with the PLD rotation in Shadowbringers, funnily.

Because you don't continue using MP until you run out. They made PLD's magic combo cost less MP so that you can still Clemency after using it.

The combo is exactly the same as ShB with the exception of, after Confeiteor, you use Blade of Faith, Blade of Truth then Blade of Valor instead of Fast Blade, Riot Blade, Goring Blade. Do this and you find the rotation flows smoothly, with everything lining up. The only reason the blade combo has MP restoration is to make up for it replacing a Riot Blade, which would restore MP.

Even if you want to go off of potency, a Royal Authority + 3 Atonement is more potency per GCD than an unbuffed Holy Spirit cast. Even if you only use 2 Atonements to account for drift, it is still stronger per GCD than Holy Spirit. The only time Holy Spirit is stronger is when it is under Requiescat, which disappears once you use Confiteor, irregardless of how many stacks it has left.

Just because you didn't understand how things are meant to fit together in the rotation, doesn't then qualify that thing as being bad. Maybe, just maybe, learn how a job is supposed to function before you start blaming it for not making sense. PLD does have it's issues, however (in a vacuum) the rotation flow is not one of them.

[Rithy255]

Maybe a hot take, but I don't think stuff like Shield Bash should be removed. I think it's perfectly fine to have buttons that have no application to raid gameplay, because removing those buttons removes opportunities to find uses for them in non-raid gameplay. Criterion is an opportunity to have trash etc that are actually enjoyable to deal with, but they *can't* really do that due to the lack of utility among most classes.

and you're against clemency why? like what even. Clemency even has more use cases inside raids and inside solo content, criterion, deep dungeons.