PLD changes; thoughts?

[TheDustyOne]

I don't like this new rotation, it feels far worse without the DoT giving that sense of flow, instead we spam Royal Authority > Atonement, back to back with only 1 Holy Spirit to break it up between them.

Goring being a 60s cooldown with nothing else going for it is pathetic. No interaction with any other ability, no extra resources generated, nothing, just press it after you use FoF. The ability now feels vestigial, like they wanted to get rid of it but realized people would complain, and couldn't think of an actual good reason to keep it around.

If they wanted to remove the DoT and have the Goring combo mean something rather than just reducing it to a mere cooldown, one option I would've done would be to make it generate the new Divine Might buff, while Royal Authority > Atonement regenerates MP for Holy Spirit. At least that would've made sense and the 2 combos would compliment each other as Spender/Generator combos.

The fact that our rotation is still 26 GCDs long, and that our spells STILL don't get reduced recast with our skill speed, means that we're stuck again with a rotation about 63 seconds long, and with that, still have to sacrifice a Sword Oath stack.

Requiescat could just as easily be removed by making Confiteor a 60s cooldown and its potency spread across other abilities, that's the only reason this button even exists in this current rotation. Holy Spirit being boosted by Req is only for lower levels or to act as a noob trap.

I don't really care if this rotation solves the problem of Paladin not being bursty enough every 2 minutes, that's a separate discussion, what I do care about though is that the job I loved is now effectively removed from the game in favour of something I find dull. As far as I'm concerned, if the feel of a job isn't something I like, I don't want to play it, regardless of its performance in DPS charts. It's why I haven't enjoyed Samurai since they removed Kaiten, or why I don't enjoy Scholar as much without the DoTs we lost since the healer reworks in Shadowbringers.

At least the defensive changes are nice, I'm happy to see Bulwark back, Divine Veil change was long overdue and Holy Sheltron is finally useful for those DoT busters. That said I still have criticisms, why bother having separate buttons for Sheltron and Intervention if they generally do the same thing? Have Intervention give me a 15% mit if I use it on myself or 10% on another player, that way we only need one of those buttons. Hell, we wouldn't have needed Bulwark if Intervention worked like that since Holy Sheltron could've been that unique 90s mitigation instead. Paladin already has fairly cramped hotbar space, so having to put Bulwark in is getting excessive.

Cover is still too niche in my opinion, giving it some mitigation like in Stormblood or removing the Oath cost would be far more helpful. Instead I find myself throwing around Interventions in its place since the mitigation and regen does a better job of looking after the party. Cover only gets use if a party member would die without it.

I'm thinking of going with Gunbreaker instead for this expansion. I don't like how Paladins rotation plays now.

[ForsakenRoe]

If they wanted to remove the DoT and have the Goring combo mean something rather than just reducing it to a mere cooldown, one option I would've done would be to make it generate the new Divine Might buff, while Royal Authority > Atonement regenerates MP for Holy Spirit. At least that would've made sense and the 2 combos would compliment each other as Spender/Generator combos.

That's what I was saying, having Conf>Blade>Blade>Blade as a combo each 60s is a 10sec 'block', Fast>Riot>Goring>HS is a 10s 'block' that consumes MP, Fast>Riot>RA>Atone (one of them) is a 10s 'block' that regenerates MP. Stitch together a 60s loop out of 6 of these 'blocks' based on fight timings (default of 2 RA/3 Goring, extra MP requirement is covered by natural regen), bam job done. It'd still retain at least a tiny bit of optimization leeway, IE, you could know 'ah there's High Concept coming up, I can't hit the boss, I'll dump extra Goring>HS combos in advance, so I'm regenerating MP during the downtime instead of capping'. It wasn't exactly hard to come up with an idea like this either, but SE somehow managed to miss what I'd consider one of the most logical rework outcomes possible, in favour of... a pseudo 7step combo, Atonement STILL breaking your 123, and STILL having the weird unintuitive 'drop some Atonements from each loop lmao' noobtrap thing

[Gserpent]

I don't really care if this rotation solves the problem of Paladin not being bursty enough every 2 minutes, that's a separate discussion, what I do care about though is that the job I loved is now effectively removed from the game in favour of something I find dull. As far as I'm concerned, if the feel of a job isn't something I like, I don't want to play it, regardless of its performance in DPS charts. It's why I haven't enjoyed Samurai since they removed Kaiten, or why I don't enjoy Scholar as much without the DoTs we lost since the healer reworks in Shadowbringers.

At least the defensive changes are nice, I'm happy to see Bulwark back, Divine Veil change was long overdue and Holy Sheltron is finally useful for those DoT busters. That said I still have criticisms, why bother having separate buttons for Sheltron and Intervention if they generally do the same thing? Have Intervention give me a 15% mit if I use it on myself or 10% on another player, that way we only need one of those buttons. Hell, we wouldn't have needed Bulwark if Intervention worked like that since Holy Sheltron could've been that unique 90s mitigation instead. Paladin already has fairly cramped hotbar space, so having to put Bulwark in is getting excessive.

Cover is still too niche in my opinion, giving it some mitigation like in Stormblood or removing the Oath cost would be far more helpful. Instead I find myself throwing around Interventions in its place since the mitigation and regen does a better job of looking after the party. Cover only gets use if a party member would die without it.

I'm thinking of going with Gunbreaker instead for this expansion. I don't like how Paladins rotation plays now.

It's honestly some of the most slapdash, lazy shit I've ever seen come out of CBU3. I know we'll never get any straight answers, but I honestly wonder what went into changes that are this half-assed - was it time constraints and they had to push out what they could? Was it lack of testing? Was it the people spearheading the process just, to be blunt, suck at their jobs? I mean, "lazy" might be off-base but... fuck, man, I'm running out of excuses to cover them with. This isn't the first example of this kind of threadbare design in Endwalker, this has been a fucking *pattern.*

At a surface level, the changes seem okay, but the very moment you start putting this into an example/sim rotation or gameplay examples, you realize that this marginally improved a few things that weren't really an issue before (PLD's DPS was acceptable, if not good) while leaving untouched things that are core design/gameflow issues like you've mentioned - spells being on SpS instead of SkS, too many GCDs per cycle leading to us having to drop one, etc. I'd also add in the frankly impressive amount of incompetence that's involved in addressing the "can't block bleeds" issue in Sheltron and *simultaneously* reintroduce that issue with Bulwark, instead of just copying Camouflage and giving it 10% DR and mathing out what amount of bonus block chance it should give to provide the intended ~15% DR over its duration.

Divine Veil is also clearly being punished for Passage still existing (or, rather, Shake It Off was boosted since WAR doesn't have Passage), yet Passage wasn't changed in any way that would make it more practically useful for a typical DF/PF group.

I can't speak for JP, but I've seen *plenty* of fantastic outlines for a rework of the class here and elsewhere. Like... if your in-house people suck, just fucking copy the homework your dedicated players are doing for you and then tweak it here and there to fit what the game requires it to be. I'd be amazed if NA/EU is the only place that's produced high quality "class rework" concepts, though.

[Kemeko]

The issue is the Divine Might system is incomplete and poorly implemented. Divine Might and Requiescat are supposed to be the same potency and you combine them when under the effect of both. It's supposed to stack up to 5 as well. Missing Shield Bash combo system to complement it. Sword Oath system boosts [Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Shield Bash] to same potency as [Atonement]. Fight or Flight is supposed to be physical only to mirror Requiescat. Goring Blade is 15% all damage buff and 1 Divine Might, Royal Authority is 3 Sword Oath and 1 Divine Might, Atonement is 2 Sword Oath and 2 Divine Might. Atonement is both a standalone combo and a filler. Clemency gives 2 Divine Might when used with Divine Veil, since Divine Veil would be a healing version of Requiescat. So you can use it to restore Oath gauge (1000 mp cost = 10 oath) and prep for a burst window during downtime when using it with Requiescat. (Fight or Flight 10 gcd physical = Requiescat 5 gcd magical) This physical/magic ratio must be respected to achieve balance with potencies on both burst windows.

[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Goring Blade][Holy Spirit] Flows naturally.
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Holy Spirit] Flows naturally.
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement][Holy Spirit] Flows naturally.
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement][Atonement][Atonement][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit] Flows naturally.
[Shield Bash][Goring Blade][Holy Spirit] Flows naturally.
[Shield Bash][Royal Authority][Holy Spirit] Flows naturally.
[Shield Bash][Atonement][Holy Spirit] Flows naturally.
[Shield Bash][Atonement][Atonement][Atonement][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit] Flows naturally.
[Total Eclipse][Prominence][Holy Circle] Flows naturally.

[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority][Atonement][Atonement][Atonement][Holy Spirit] Does not flow naturally.

We were left with the worst combo that doesn't complement Divine Might well.

Idealized Rotation (2.5 gcd):

Physical Phase [Fight or Flight]
[Shield Bash][Goring Blade]
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority]
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement]
[Shield Bash][Goring Blade]

Magic Phase [Requiescat]
[Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit]
[Confiteor][Blade of Faith][Blade of Truth][Blade of Valor]

Filler Phase [Unbuffed]
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Royal Authority]
[Fast Blade][Riot Blade][Atonement]

Healing Phase [Divine Veil]
[Clemency][Holy Spirit][Clemency][Holy Spirit][Holy Spirit]

Potency Examples:

Atonement: 300
Atonement (FoF): 375
Holy Spirit: 190
Holy Spirit (Req): 380
Holy Spirit (Divine Might): 380
Holy Spirit (Req + Divine Might): 760
Holy Circle: 130
Holy Circle (Req): 260
Holy Circle (Divine Might): 260
Holy Circle (Req + Divine Might): 520

[RyuuZero]

I can't speak for JP, but I've seen *plenty* of fantastic outlines for a rework of the class here and elsewhere. Like... if your in-house people suck, just fucking copy the homework your dedicated players are doing for you and then tweak it here and there to fit what the game requires it to be. I'd be amazed if NA/EU is the only place that's produced high quality "class rework" concepts, though.

Shhh! this is what the UI Team is doing already! but also ban first and copy the homework later

[Marxam]

At least PLD didn't get 100% crit DH. GB already does more dmg than PR so count your blessing they didn't mess it up too bad.

[Vidu]

Yeah, this must be some kind of sick joke - I wasnt looking forward to changes in general, but this is worse than I expected... I lost all sense of flow from my rotation, its just lackluster now. I really liked the clear melee-casting-phase seperation, it flowed really, really nicely... I can live without the dots but please... give my old rotation back ;_;

They did a really good job in Shadowbringers and with 6.0 to perfect it - and now they've basically taken a sledgehammer to it for no good reason.

Not that I'd expect it, but I'm dreaming off finding an article on the lodestone tomorrow title "haha, got you good, hotfix to revert the changes is next week!"

Some of the QoL might have been nice. hadnt they taken so much QoL away with the same breath...

[Gserpent]

Honestly, they just need to decide what to do with Atonement. The absolute blandest and simplest solution would just to turn it into Raiden Thrust - consume Divine Might, Atonement replaces Fast Blade. Or just have Atonement replace Riot Blade, since it's the same goddamn animation to begin with (forward over-arm thrust) and retune potency of the combo accordingly. I loved the "Atonement becomes Apex Arrow" concept I saw here earlier.

I would not ordinarily call this team stupid, lazy, or incompetent - not *seriously*, anyway - but the fact that they left in the whole "have to occasionally drop Atonements or hardcast Holy Spirits" thing and then Bulwark will suffer from the problem they *just fixed* in Sheltron makes for some pretty strong evidence for one of those three being accurate.

Wasn't the point to rework the rotation and flow so that it fits modern design better? Yoshida quite literally said something to that effect in the Famitsu interview just before the second PLL - late enough that changes were likely set in stone at that time and the only thing left was QA testing and maybe a little bit of fine-tuning potency (remember that there's a significant lead time on getting patches and the like approved through Sony.) Was Yoshida just genuinely not aware of how slapdash the rework was?

Too bad they'd never allow such questions into a Q&A.

[ForsakenRoe]

Honestly, they just need to decide what to do with Atonement. The absolute blandest and simplest solution would just to turn it into Raiden Thrust - consume Divine Might, Atonement replaces Fast Blade. Or just have Atonement replace Riot Blade, since it's the same goddamn animation to begin with (forward over-arm thrust) and retune potency of the combo accordingly. I loved the "Atonement becomes Apex Arrow" concept I saw here earlier.

I would not ordinarily call this team stupid, lazy, or incompetent - not *seriously*, anyway - but the fact that they left in the whole "have to occasionally drop Atonements or hardcast Holy Spirits" thing and then Bulwark will suffer from the problem they *just fixed* in Sheltron makes for some pretty strong evidence for one of those three being accurate.

Wasn't the point to rework the rotation and flow so that it fits modern design better? Yoshida quite literally said something to that effect in the Famitsu interview just before the second PLL - late enough that changes were likely set in stone at that time and the only thing left was QA testing and maybe a little bit of fine-tuning potency (remember that there's a significant lead time on getting patches and the like approved through Sony.) Was Yoshida just genuinely not aware of how slapdash the rework was?

Too bad they'd never allow such questions into a Q&A.

That person who came up with Apex Atonement must be some kind of genius /s

I think Bulwark is actually okay with the 'can't use on DOTs' thing, I look at it as similar to Dark Mind and Camo (though Camo has the 10% too), if there's autoattacks, then a DOTBuster coming, I'll use Bulwark for the Autos, and Rampart for the TB, rather than 'nothing' for the autos, then Rampart for the TB. Sure it could be better, but the fact PLD is now up to parity with other tanks in terms of CDs is good IMO. And it's not like the other tanks have their 'tertiary CDs' work 100% of the time. Thrill doesn't help make DOTs tick for less. Dark Mind doesn't help with DOTs in some cases (Toxic Crunch is Phys as far as I'm aware, so it wouldn't mitigate the DOT from that, only from Venomous Mass). Wouldn't say no to a baseline 5% Mit on it, but if anything, my concern is more the duration. 10s? Really? DM's 10s on a 60s CD and Camo's 20s on a 90. Weird.