The Ascians going forward

[Cleretic]

I think there is an important secondary question after 'what could they do with the Ascians after Endwalker':

What would the developers want to do with the Ascians after Endwalker? Do they want to do anything at all? They're under no obligation to use every tool in the box, after all--and god knows there's plenty of elements in the world they've not done anything with.

I don't think they want to use them in the present day for the forseeable future. Technically speaking they aren't extinct, sure, but I don't sense any will to drag them out; the developers seem as tired of them as the general playerbase is. Sure, they're definitely interested in exploring the era of Amaurot more, much to my personal chagrin, but that's not really the same story.

Honestly, I get the feeling that they kinda regret having a fourteen-member Villain Council in the first place. When we're talking about 'fully-formed and distinct characters', fourteen is a pretty big number, and the Ascians are kind of all forced into the same general 'shape' both visually and conceptually. Fleshing out and exploring ALL of them is a task that feels tedious both to writer and audience; the last sort of reaction you want to getting to a new character is 'god damnit, another one'. I actually feel like we've already reached that, I definitely got the feeling Ascian fatigue was setting in around the overall community by the time Fandaniel turned up, and he only overcame it by being so strongly and overtly different (and in many ways, not an Ascian at all). I feel like there's a reason they killed three Ascians off-screen: because then there's three less Ascians to deal with.

[Enkidoh]

In regards to the black-masked Ascians, the HW SMN Job quests explained that the black masked ones are not just lower ranked, they're also more restricted in how they can cheat death - unlike the the red-masked ex-Convocation Overlords, the black masks cannot flee to the edge of the Aetherial Sea upon the destruction of their host, and more importantly, cannot possess a living host at all, they can only possess a corpse (just like a Voidsent). So it's pretty easy to see how this can turn out - kill a black mask's physical host where there is no easy access for them to possess another corpse and... ooops... bye bye Mr Ascian (so no fighting them in say a recent battlefield or a cemetery...).

This is how the level 60 SMN Job quest is resolved by setting up a situation where the black masked Ascian is trapped by not having a convienent dead body to flee to - destroy it's host and the Ascian's soul is also destroyed.

Hence this is why I don't think we have anything to fear from any of the remaining lower grunt Ascians as they're easily destroyed. And as there is now not just a cure for tempering but an effective means of protecting against it (to say nothing of now knowing how to summon without causing that annoying tempering issue), I don't see this being an issue for the world going forward.

[WhiteArchmage]

Honestly, I get the feeling that they kinda regret having a fourteen-member Villain Council in the first place. When we're talking about 'fully-formed and distinct characters', fourteen is a pretty big number, and the Ascians are kind of all forced into the same general 'shape' both visually and conceptually. Fleshing out and exploring ALL of them is a task that feels tedious both to writer and audience; the last sort of reaction you want to getting to a new character is 'god damnit, another one'. I actually feel like we've already reached that, I definitely got the feeling Ascian fatigue was setting in around the overall community by the time Fandaniel turned up, and he only overcame it by being so strongly and overtly different (and in many ways, not an Ascian at all). I feel like there's a reason they killed three Ascians off-screen: because then there's three less Ascians to deal with.

I believe this is part of the Ascian problem. I'll... try no to go too in-depth but will do a rundown of what they were in development:

In 1.x, we actually didn't know much about them except they went around from time to time doling out items of power (the horn that then appeared all the way in Alexander, by the one named Ascian in 1.x, too, Travanchet- who it is now implied was an alias or the name of the Elezen he was possessing), or poking around and scaring the tribes (the "Ascian Reaper" whose model got recycled to Ascian Prime). Whatever Tanaka-san and the writing team back then had written down is probably no longer part of XIV.
By 2.x they were vague antagonistic wizards. I suspect their naming came from Yoshi-P's love of Ivalice and sort of a placeholder for "maybe we'll develop them and maybe we'll just ignore this." I'll point to Anonymoose's thread on the fate of the Ascians (someone with more time and will could probably necro that and keep it updated?) that some parts of 2.x, especially the 2.3 scene, were likely not combed over when the Ascians were further developed. (To wit: The 2.3 scene has more overlords than we know exist, Emmerololth is alive when she should've been destroyed when Galuf and co. sent the Isle of Val to the Aetherial Sea; Mitron and Logrif would've been in the first and may or may not have been clashing with Ardbert and co. at the time, and Emet would've been enjoying his slumber; plus with Lahabrea and Elidibus in the circle and not on a seat, there's 2 extra Ascians). Also at this point Lahabrea and Elidibus mention how unthinkable it is that an overlord got got, while Emet says in 5.0 that such things happen but then they raise up someone to the position.

It is likely around 4.x (likely 4.2-4.3) that the team starts plotting up ShB and Ishikawa finally gives them some backstory and purpose other than "vaguely hint at the 'true power of the Echo' while also being very vague at the nature of Zodiark and Hydaelyn." It's also around 4.x that we start our Great Offscreen Purge as Emmerololth gets destroyed pre-Eureka and two red masks get offed by Gaius (this one I feel some contention to, as HOW would Gaius know how to permanently kill off an overlord? So maybe he just killed their bodies). 5.x then has us off 4 in one expansion.

So I do think they regret making such a large group in the first place, especially since poor Deudalaphon isn't even name-dropped when Emet tells you everyone's seats in Elpis. My guess is they'll either quietly sweep the rest under the rug, likely by killing them off-screen; or maybe they'll pop up every so often as Antagonist of the Week.

[Cleretic]

It is likely around 4.x (likely 4.2-4.3) that the team starts plotting up ShB and Ishikawa finally gives them some backstory and purpose other than "vaguely hint at the 'true power of the Echo' while also being very vague at the nature of Zodiark and Hydaelyn." It's also around 4.x that we start our Great Offscreen Purge as Emmerololth gets destroyed pre-Eureka and two red masks get offed by Gaius (this one I feel some contention to, as HOW would Gaius know how to permanently kill off an overlord? So maybe he just killed their bodies). 5.x then has us off 4 in one expansion.

A minor addition: we do know from developer interviews that there was a plan about the Ascians before the one we got, it was just a different plan that we don't know the specifics about. We don't know exactly when the current Ascian plan came together, though; my estimation is that the outline came around during the Heavensward patches (thus explaining why Hydaelyn's Antitower speech is far more accurate than Lahabrea's Praetorium speech, and bringing in the shards with the Warriors of Darkness), and then gave the Ascians a break in Stormblood while they got the entire thing sorted out.

That roundtable scene was probably a mistake as far as foreshadowing goes, though. It didn't just force them into fourteen characters (and then accidentally caused plot holes after they decided some of those people were busy), it also forced them all to be hyur-shaped and uniformed, which shot them in the foot regarding them being visually distinct and diverse in ways that the rest of the game can be. I know personally, while I don't think I could've filled a group of fourteen shared-objective villains with compelling characters no matter how much I tried, I probably could've gotten further if I were able to go 'okay this one's a lalafel, this one's a roegadyn, this one's an au ra'.

[Iscah]

A minor addition: we do know from developer interviews that there was a plan about the Ascians before the one we got, it was just a different plan that we don't know the specifics about.

Where is that from? All I recall is that they joked at one point about not really having a plan before Shadowbringers.

As for making them different races, I'm fine with them all being Hyurs. At that point the "robed Hyuran figure" look seemed to be their own race in their native forms, and the truth is not so far off that.

[Cleretic]

Where is that from? All I recall is that they joked at one point about not really having a plan before Shadowbringers.

Sometime soon after Endwalker, there was a Japanese radio program (or maybe podcast, I'm not sure) that had Yuichi Nakamura (Thancred's Japanese VA) and Yoshi-P on. Yuichi mentioned that on being hired, he was given a sheet of info on the Ascians with a bunch of stuff that never came up on it, and Yoshi-P's response was basically 'yeah all that got thrown out'. While we have no idea what that stuff actually was or how complete it ended up being, it does at least confirm that there were ideas that got changed. And that completely matches with the fact that the pre-Heavensward Ascian content is written largely consistently amongst itself, it's clearly in some way intentioned and not just formless nonsense, but doesn't completely track with Ascian content afterwards.

We know that for the most part their planning is very ad hoc, and any instances of callbacks to previous plot hooks are less actually planned and more 'oh hey here's something we wrote in that works for what we need', but it seems like the Ascians were a little different, there was a plan and it changed. We have no idea how fully-formed that original idea was at any point, or even who wrote it (for all we know it might've been lingering 1.0 stuff that was already out the window but was all they had to get the VA into character), but they were definitely working towards something and then changed track rather than the more typical 'this story needs a magic artifact, let's use that one from 1.0'.

This part just stuck in my mind because I liked the image of Yuichi Nakamura getting to the actual Ascian content his characters were interacting with, and spending two expansions going 'why aren't they mentioning X, this feels like it should come up now' but just never having the chance to bring it up until right then.

[MikkoAkure]

Sometime soon after Endwalker, there was a Japanese radio program (or maybe podcast, I'm not sure) that had Yuichi Nakamura (Thancred's Japanese VA) and Yoshi-P on. Yuichi mentioned that on being hired, he was given a sheet of info on the Ascians with a bunch of stuff that never came up on it, and Yoshi-P's response was basically 'yeah all that got thrown out'. While we have no idea what that stuff actually was or how complete it ended up being, it does at least confirm that there were ideas that got changed. And that completely matches with the fact that the pre-Heavensward Ascian content is written largely consistently amongst itself, it's clearly in some way intentioned and not just formless nonsense, but doesn't completely track with Ascian content afterwards.

We know that for the most part their planning is very ad hoc, and any instances of callbacks to previous plot hooks are less actually planned and more 'oh hey here's something we wrote in that works for what we need', but it seems like the Ascians were a little different, there was a plan and it changed. We have no idea how fully-formed that original idea was at any point, or even who wrote it (for all we know it might've been lingering 1.0 stuff that was already out the window but was all they had to get the VA into character), but they were definitely working towards something and then changed track rather than the more typical 'this story needs a magic artifact, let's use that one from 1.0'.

This part just stuck in my mind because I liked the image of Yuichi Nakamura getting to the actual Ascian content his characters were interacting with, and spending two expansions going 'why aren't they mentioning X, this feels like it should come up now' but just never having the chance to bring it up until right then.

There's a different interview with Yoshi-P, Ishikawa, and Oda about the Ascians that describes how things were with them:

I joined the project during 1.0, and there was already some fundamentals of the world-building, such as the Ascians and Hydaelyn. In truth, we didn’t know what to do with this lore. I’m glad there were were able to make them something players can understand.

Even back during ARR, HW and SB, it was said 'we don’t have detailed lore yet for what the Ascians’ goals are, so let’s just have them be doing bad stuff in the background.'

Its easy to think we planned it out in advance, but in truth thats wrong, the original Ascian lore we had only went as far as 'looks like they’re doing bad stuff'. [...] Back in 1.0 it was said about the Ascians, 'they are paranormal entities that are planning something, they have no shadows'. But back then other characters’ shadows also didn’t display… so the Ascians’ special feature was done away with, and so after that they were rebuilt into 'a group of bad guys'.

While that doesn't mean that they weren't giving VAs a random list of things the Ascians could be up to, this interview is more well known and is probably where Iscah is coming from.

As for when the Ascian goal was crystalized, it was probably in the middle of writing the post-HW content since that's around when the Ascians stopped being all "one true god" this and "plunge the world into eternal darkness" that. It was also then that we learned about the shards and the whole mechanism around Calamities with more of a reason than just to piece back Zodiark so he can rule the world and everyone laughs maniacally.

[rainichan]

During the big "10 Years" LL they did after Endwalker, they mentioned the final Named Ascians that they have true names and that they have their backgrounds, should they decide to use them in the story in some way.

Here's the post with the translation, and here's the Q and A:

Q: Are there sundered Ascians (other than Fandaniel) or black-masked Ascians of lower ranks still around? I’d also like to know which Ascians those two red masks that Gaius carries around belonged to.

A: Perhaps a few of the sundered Ascians are still around, though it’s unclear whether they would be on the Source or one of the Reflections.

The masks Gaius carries around once belonged to Altima and Deudalaphon. However, Gaius simply had their masks, and whether or not he truly vanquished them has yet to be clarified. A point you may want to consider in your theories is what it takes to vanquish an Ascian.

And

Q: Will we have a chance to learn the identities of the full Convocation of Fourteen?

A: Their true names are already decided, but whether they’ll be revealed or not depends on how the plot develops in the future.

Despite there being some "okay no more Ascians" I do think tying up those loose ends for good would be a good idea so they're not just... there. I would think that the WoL and the Scions would know "we only dealt with these, so there are at least a few more out there." and... you know... want to deal with them. They aren't like their Unsundered counterparts, sure, but the threat of them there trying to stir up trouble wouldn't be there if they were dealt with.

[Cleretic]

Despite there being some "okay no more Ascians" I do think tying up those loose ends for good would be a good idea so they're not just... there. I would think that the WoL and the Scions would know "we only dealt with these, so there are at least a few more out there." and... you know... want to deal with them. They aren't like their Unsundered counterparts, sure, but the threat of them there trying to stir up trouble wouldn't be there if they were dealt with.

See, I think getting rid of the unaccounted-for ones just for the sake of clearing the board is a bad idea for two reasons.

1. That sounds very boring to play through. We've already dealt with a lot of Ascians, just clearing out the list sounds more like chores than anything, especially when even the writers don't have anything fun for them to do.

2. It keeps them in the wings in case someone actually does come up with an interesting context to have an Ascian be in in the future. Maybe in big main-story content, maybe in side stuff. (I'm still rooting for 'Ascian decides to be Wizard Jeff Bezos' as an antagonist for a crafting storyline.)

Sure, it would be a technically reasonable decision for the Scions to go 'yeah we should take them out before they're a big problem', but interesting stories are rarely rooted in every single person having made the 100% correct decision.

[rainichan]

See, I think getting rid of the unaccounted-for ones just for the sake of clearing the board is a bad idea for two reasons.

1. That sounds very boring to play through. We've already dealt with a lot of Ascians, just clearing out the list sounds more like chores than anything, especially when even the writers don't have anything fun for them to do.

2. It keeps them in the wings in case someone actually does come up with an interesting context to have an Ascian be in in the future. Maybe in big main-story content, maybe in side stuff. (I'm still rooting for 'Ascian decides to be Wizard Jeff Bezos' as an antagonist for a crafting storyline.)

Sure, it would be a technically reasonable decision for the Scions to go 'yeah we should take them out before they're a big problem', but interesting stories are rarely rooted in every single person having made the 100% correct decision.

Different strokes for different folks They could stay in side stories too, either way just forgetting about them would be very... out of character for the good guys. If they're on other shards then sure, we won't need to deal with them immediately assuming we don't shard hop, but eventually they'll likely be dealt with.