Playing an expansion as current content has been a lacklustre MMO experience

[Rolder50]

No, they don’t . Some are even worse than XIV.

Terrible examples really

It depends largely on what this new players drive is. If they want a largely solo story game, XIV probably has the best new player experience. If they want a game focused on combat, playing with friends in dungeons, or anything along those lines, then it's the worst.

[Jojoya]

My complaints on the MSQ stem from how daunting it is to know you are investing hundreds of hours into a game where there is realistically no other gameplay content than the story until you get to 90 unless you can find like minded people to do synced raids or trials while you are leveling up. Sure there are side things that you can do while leveling but the vast majority of your gameplay experience is in completing the MSQ. My hope is that they either prune it or give an option to prune it for new players or even just start a new story in 7.0 that lets you have the option to start your adventure there.

Except there is a lot of content other than MSQ to do as you level.

The problem is thinking that end game is "the game" (thanks, Blizzard /s). That anything else in the game is worthless other than as a means to get to end game.

People play other games that have no end game all the time. None of the single player RPGs I used to play before I started playing MMOs had an end game. None of the RTS games I used to play had an end game unless you were gunning for ranks in PvP tournaments (I was not). None of the city building/simulation games I played had an end game.

You played the game, reached the end and that was it. There was nothing to do but start over again or play the repeatable content casually with friends.

What is end game in any MMO? It's a time filler to try to keep players subscribed (or buying loot boxes in the case of F2P MMOs) until the next content release. But there is also plenty of other content to keep players occupied.

This game has a massive advantage compared to WoW (can't say how it compares to the other popular MMOs currently out there). I don't have to wait for my friends to catch up to me to be able to play with them when they're just starting the game nor do I have to create a new character to do it. I can use my existing character and enable NG+. I can level sync for dungeons/trial/raids and FATEs so I'm not steamrolling through the content at their level.

If people want their friends to pick up the game, don't use the "we have to rush you to end game" method. Let them adventure at their own place and join them on that adventure.

If they truly have the "end game or bust" mentality (thanks, Blizzard /s), then pay for the story skip and job boost to get them close to it. Paying $50 to save 200+ hours of effort you don't want to do should be considered a bargain.

It depends largely on what this new players drive is. If they want a largely solo story game, XIV probably has the best new player experience. If they want a game focused on combat, playing with friends in dungeons, or anything along those lines, then it's the worst.

It's way easier to play with friends in dungeons here than in WoW.

[Axxion]

Hey Petah, remember the time when game journalists were so bad at their job they had to write a two paragraph argument on why it was okay they took around 15 minutes to beat the tutorial on cuphead?

actually no. jc

[Raoabolic]

actually no. jc

Make sure to have adblock up!

It was a really funny read that reeked of "No, no, no. We are competent, it was that one person who was bad!" I sort of feel bad that venture beat or whatever they are called threw that "journalist" under the bus like that though. lol

[LittleImp]

What is end game in any MMO? It's a time filler to try to keep players subscribed (or buying loot boxes in the case of F2P MMOs) until the next content release. But there is also plenty of other content to keep players occupied.

In 14, you cannot fully engage with the gameplay until endgame. Jobs are not thoughtfully designed sub-levelcap, and the tuning of older encounters is very poorly maintained. For content-oriented players, reaching the stage of the game where their jobs kit actually matters is appealing.

This game has a massive advantage compared to WoW (can't say how it compares to the other popular MMOs currently out there). I don't have to wait for my friends to catch up to me to be able to play with them when they're just starting the game nor do I have to create a new character to do it. I can use my existing character and enable NG+. I can level sync for dungeons/trial/raids and FATEs so I'm not steamrolling through the content at their level.

The downside is that 95% of the time you spend on this game doing the MSQ is NOT cooperative or multiplayer in any way. If you shadow a friend doing the MSQ, you spend most of your time staring at their playermodel with the cutscene icon next to their name as they talk to alphinaud for the 500th time. The 'difficulty' of doing the MSQ with friends is actually a VERY common complaint that shows up on discussion platforms for 14 all the time.

It's way easier to play with friends in dungeons here than in WoW.

The caveat here is that Dungeons/Trials are essentially the only real 'gameplay' you get to participate in during the FFXIV MSQ, whereas in WoW you spend the majority of your time leveling just questing in the open world, which is almost entirely cooperative.

If you assessed both of the games by the standard of "What percentage of playing through your first character can be done cooperatively", FFXIV wouldn't even come remotely close to winning that contest.

[DPZ2]

The downside is that 95% of the time you spend on this game doing the MSQ is NOT cooperative or multiplayer in any way. If you shadow a friend doing the MSQ, you spend most of your time staring at their playermodel with the cutscene icon next to their name as they talk to alphinaud for the 500th time. The 'difficulty' of doing the MSQ with friends is actually a VERY common complaint that shows up on discussion platforms for 14 all the time.

Welcome to the wonderful world of MMORPGs in general. The sad fact is that few, if any, MMORPGs are "cooperative". They are engines to drive players into endgame raids. Most of those players do not have "friends" to play with, outside those they make in-game. It's just a bunch of strangers who, if they choose the right Free Company, can enjoy conversations as they level up, and, possibly, find an extra Healer FC mate to speed up the dungeon instance queues.

As an example, you can play in World of Warcraft (GW2, SW:ToR, Wildstar, Rift, Secret World, [pick your favorite non-PvP-oriented MMORPG here] without ever touching a dungeon instance. That is the MMORPG game design for at least the last 20 years.

And really ... WoW hasn't had any particularly "cooperative" leveling in the open world since, hmmmmm, Burning Crusade? Unless you mean "overpowered friend assists you by killing everything you tag once". That is entirely possible in this game as well. I played enough years in WoW to realize that, outside of raiding, the game was essentially a single-player game with optional stuff you can do with other players. Pretty much like FFXIV, except some of that 'optional stuff' is part of an actual story line.

[LittleImp]

And really ... WoW hasn't had any particularly "cooperative" leveling in the open world since, hmmmmm, Burning Crusade? Unless you mean "overpowered friend assists you by killing everything you tag once". That is entirely possible in this game as well. I played enough years in WoW to realize that, outside of raiding, the game was essentially a single-player game with optional stuff you can do with other players. Pretty much like FFXIV, except some of that 'optional stuff' is part of an actual story line.

lmao what.

I just leveled a bunch of jobs with friends on WoW in preperation for the expansion dropping. The entire experience can be done cooperatively, excluding like.. the garrison setup quests if you chromie time into WoD. You can meaningfully interact with eachother through every step of the process. In fact, questing is made substantially more enjoyable and efficient if you can spread out and grab objectives more quickly, or pull more mobs together.

If you roll a character side-by-side with someone in 14, the most you will interact between dungeons is watching your friend walk up to an NPC and seeing a cutscene icon appear above their head. Oh and of course "Solo duty, gonna drop party brb". Once every 3 hours you get to queue into a dungeon/trial together, which lasts for around 7-18 minutes.

[Raven2014]

If you assessed both of the games by the standard of "What percentage of playing through your first character can be done cooperatively", FFXIV wouldn't even come remotely close to winning that contest.

Does it have to be?

In FF14 your character have a very unique identity, a one of a kind in the game world. If you look at WoW or most other MMO, you're simply a generic "Heroes of the Alliance/Horde" or "adventure". And thus the MSQ is tailor fit to make sense for one person only. In WoW, you're simply another soldier/adventure joining a campaign, a dime in a dozen. I think for that reason that they don't want the MSQ to involve other players, it would simply trivialize the story impact.

Like ... think about it, FF14 has some of the most impactful cutsceen in MMO, and even if you compare to just general JRPG their scene is also up there. And part of the reason is the cutsceen is about your character. Now if you look at WoW ... sure it also have some great scene, but ... those scene is never really about you, it's always about the main faction NPCs where you are nothing but a viewer.

FF14 MSQ is your story. In WoW, you're watching Jaina, Sylvana, Lich King, Malfuron, Thrall ...etc... story. Heck, FF14 create a whole team for your characters (the scion), whether in other MMO you don't have as much as a side kick (aside from your team in TOR).


Like, I'm not even gonna comparing which one is better. They each cater to a different taste, and as someone who can enjoy both taste I appreciate the difference. Can we ... not obsessively ask for everything to be the same? And the game have multi-class system, twenty to be exact, you'll have plenty of opportunity to do so nineteen other times. So for pity shake can we not asking to make the very first and only experience that's unique to FF14 to become another dime in a dozen?

[Jojoya]

In 14, you cannot fully engage with the gameplay until endgame. Jobs are not thoughtfully designed sub-levelcap, and the tuning of older encounters is very poorly maintained. For content-oriented players, reaching the stage of the game where their jobs kit actually matters is appealing.

If you feel like the sum of game play is your job kit and so there is none until the full kit is unlocked, that's your problem. I don't know of any MMOs out there that allow you to have access to your full job kit day one.

There's more to content than end game raiding. Who is the real content-oriented player: the one that only cares about raiding, or the one that does a bit of all content?

The downside is that 95% of the time you spend on this game doing the MSQ is NOT cooperative or multiplayer in any way. If you shadow a friend doing the MSQ, you spend most of your time staring at their playermodel with the cutscene icon next to their name as they talk to alphinaud for the 500th time. The 'difficulty' of doing the MSQ with friends is actually a VERY common complaint that shows up on discussion platforms for 14 all the time.

And yet I can be doing it with my friend, especially if I have NG+ enabled to be working on the MSQ with them or using an alt created to level with them. Many times during cutscenes, we're talking in party chat or Discord about what is happening in the cutscene.

It is not difficult to do MSQ with friends. The only annoying part is having to break group to do the solo duties. SE should really fix that so we can help coach our friends through them without having to use a third party communication tool (which is a great option for those who like using them but shouldn't end up near mandatory).

Maybe those complaining should stop being selfish and allow their friends to explore the game at their own pace just as they originally got to (unless they had been recruited to the game by a similarly selfish friend and didn't know how to enforce boundaries).

If the friend has no interest in the leveling experience, then the job boost and story skip are available. Keep in mind that SE is aware that the length of the MSQ can be a problem for players new to the game and they've announced they're working on something to address that. Hopefully it will be ready for 7.0.

The caveat here is that Dungeons/Trials are essentially the only real 'gameplay' you get to participate in during the FFXIV MSQ, whereas in WoW you spend the majority of your time leveling just questing in the open world, which is almost entirely cooperative

WoW stopped adding cooperative quests years ago and moved to solo questing. I can remember the days when you needed to get together a party to do the quests at the digsites in Darkshore and Loch Modan that had the elite mobs, or the quest to get the staff part off that one mob in Desolace that needed to unlock the shortcut portal to the depths of Maraudon, or the worgen quest chain in Grizzly Hills. I remember that multi-part quest chain in Icecrown that required a standard 5 man party to complete - and required everyone in the party to be on those specific quests or phasing wouldn't allow them to progress together.

You don't need help on the open world quests in WoW these days anymore than you need the help here (unless you're playing Classic). At the same time, there's nothing to stop players from doing them together if they want, same as here.

Cooperative play shouldn't be forced - it should be a choice and both games now allow players that choice. If I want to do the MSQ with a friend, I can outside of those solo duties. There's nothing to stop me other than having a lack of desire to play with my friend.

If you assessed both of the games by the standard of "What percentage of playing through your first character can be done cooperatively", FFXIV wouldn't even come remotely close to winning that contest.

I think your problem is you're so focused on combat as being the only form of game play (which it isn't), you overlook the value of shared experiences with friends whether or not combat is involved.

[Thaciscokidd]

FF14 MSQ is your story. In WoW, you're watching Jaina, Sylvana, Lich King, Malfuron, Thrall ...etc... story. Heck, FF14 create a whole team for your characters (the scion), whether in other MMO you don't have as much as a side kick (aside from your team in TOR).

I agree but I want to discuss this. I'd argue that us as the Main Character in this story is on the same vein as Vaan being the Main Character in FF 12. The story is usually centered around one of the Scions or someone introduced that expansion, basically its a main character's story from a supporting character's point of view. Yeah we're big and bad and can beat everyone but we are usually there because someone else told us to be or someone else just happened to be going in the same direction. I think the closest thing we get to it being our story is probably the around the vault and a little bit before the end of HW and 5.0 ShB.

Not nocking it but sometimes I wish we had some of the freedom of ToR's story, a little bit of wiggle room but walking down a set path. But that would require us to have a voice.... and the ability do things in cut scenes.