The Venat Cutscene

[Necrotica]

What was it we were seeing?

The WoL is travelling forward in time to return to the present. On the way back they collide with a shard. These shards seem to represent memories. If these are Venat's memories they are as incomplete as poor Elidibus's.

In which case maybe I and others have been way too hard on her. The cutscene is not literal. And if it is not an accurate portrayal of events then what parts of it are accurate and what parts are not?

Final days. Her memory matches up with Emet's version of it in his dungeon.

Did Emet and Hylthodeus meet up in the street 20ft from a guy getting eaten and Hythlodeas waved goodbye while Emet did angry guy fist clench? I don't think so. Venat was no longer part of the 14. She would not have been involved in that meeting. The goodbye is probably what she thinks happened between her friends, with the location just being jumbled up in her scrambled memories.

There is a NOTICEABLE lack of Zodiark in her memories of what happened. Like she completely blocked out the part where he saved the planet.

She mentally skips forward but shows no passage of time in her memory. (Also important to note is that throughout all this she is not involved in what happens up to this point. No attempt at saving people from monsters, etc. She is removed from what is going on. Some kind of Dissociative identity disorder. A mental disorder, characterized by multiple personality states and amnesia. I googled that to make sure I spelled it right and holy crap that definition hits Venat and Elidibus on the nose.)

So now Hydaelyn is facing down the worshippers of her enemy, Zodiark. And at this point she is bound by the purpose of her summoning. To stop Zodiark. Whatever Venat is in there cannot fight that core compulsion of why Hydaelyn was summoned. She confronts these followers and a somewhat odd conversation takes place. She then raises her sword and enacts the sundering. There is no battle with Zodiark.

That strongly contradicts Emet's version of events. His story made it seem like Hydaelyn and Zodiark had a long drawn out battle and in the end Hydaelyn won, but this caused the sundering. Who we believe is very subjective to how we feel about the characters.

Hydaelyn blocked any memories she had of her confrontation with Zodiark. IF it happened. If she never battled him and instead bypassed his greater power by sundering the world that is a possible explanation.

Venat then walks forward in time getting covered in black stuff. I do not think this is literal. This is probably not even remotely close to a memory and more like an emotional impression of what she has been going through.

Based on all this I think it is fair to say that once Venat was made into Hydaelyn she lost large parts of herself. She may have literally sacrificed huge parts of what made Venat, Venat.

For my own part going forward, I am going to cut Venat some slack. Not a perfect being but she was trying to do the right thing.

[Cleretic]

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to just claim all of this is some unacknowledged clue of mental damage rather than just 'the way they shot the scene', for stylistic and probably budgetary reasons. Seeing Zodiark both isn't really necessary for getting across what they were trying to do (the intent of the scene is a low-key character-focused conflict, throwing in unnecessary spectacle would've just been distracting), and would probably have been expensive; keep in mind that the existing Zodiark model wouldn't have worked because he was missing several limbs and tentacles, so they would've needed a whole new one solely for that theoretical scene. Showing the Zodiark V. Hydaelyn clash actually would've been a negative as far as storytelling goes, because not only would that have been MUCH more expensive, it also would've blown the Hydaelyn reveal by showing her before we actually meet her. Also, we know what a busted-up sense of self's Echo memories actually look like in the game thanks to Elidibus, and this isn't that.

I think there's validity to asking 'why was Elidibus' sense of identity swiss cheese by the time of the game but Venat's wasn't', but I don't think the answer to that is 'it was according to clues that only exist in a very specific interpretation of how a particular scene was constructed'. FFXIV is not a subtle game, it doesn't play those tricks.

But of course this thread is purpose-built to turn into That Same Goddamn Argument, so I basically don't care to continue following it.

[KageTokage]

Interdimensional/time travel is...weird. I never really understood why we were seeing all those memories given form when we traveled to the First and I have doubts we actually saw what happened in the mentioned cutscene.

I will say that lack of budget was the only valid excuse for not giving us an accurate depiction of the single most pivotal/world-changing event in the setting's history/lore, though. They could've just as easily done the Hydaelyn "reveal" there and had it still be impactful with proper presentation, but alas.

[kaynide]

Re: Swiss Cheese

There is something to be said that Venat, even in becoming the primal Hydaelyn, is still Venat.

As I understood it, the Elidabus we know was himself a recreated primal independent of Zodiark. We do not know if the original Elidabus was destroyed when Z was created, we do not know if Elidabus was destroyed as part of the extraction, and we do not know if the original Elidabus "Evolved" into a primal version.

I am inclined to believe the original Elidabus is dead, that it is impossible to separate a "host" from the primal when fully formed, and the Elidabus we know is a recreated version envisioned by the Ascians.

So, with all of that, I feel the primals are created much like a computer program- they have a set purpose that over time might become corrupted/decayed. As they are not meant to exist long term, they decay/degrade over time.

[Kirisu]

I reckon the reason she's kept her persona together for so long probably has something to do with Hydaelyn having far less donors for the aether that made up her being, which in turn is probably why she took up "residence" in the aetherial sea. She needed the Mothercrystal for the pursuit to Meteion's nest of course but I suspect she also used some of that infinite reserve of aether to sustain herself.

Unlike Elidibus I also think she probably made sure to get her beauty sleep when she could. These two factors I believe are the crux of why she isn't "swiss cheese" as you call it.

As for the black stuff when she's walking in the dark, you are of course free to interpret that however you like but to my mind that's probably meant to represent the rejoinings.

EDIT: re: no zodiark: you're probably reading too much into that one, the directors probably felt that didn't need to be packed into the already loaded scene.

[Lunaxia]

What was it we were seeing?

Poor storytelling, selective memory on the part of the writers and uncomfortably haphazard course correction of the established plot to have certain characters be perceived in alignment with the devs' wishes, basically.

[Necrotica]

In regards to Venat getting covered in black stuff looking back I could also see that as VENAT being worn down.
Hydaelyn when we meet her in the aetherial sea is not a beat down Venat covered in black stuff. Hydaelyn is a majestic goddess. So maybe like how Elidibus was separate from Zodiark, Venat was separate from Hydaelyn and we were watching what made her her get degraded over time.

[Iscah]

Poor storytelling, selective memory on the part of the writers and uncomfortably haphazard course correction of the established plot to have certain characters be perceived in alignment with the devs' wishes, basically.

While I agree it was haphazard, it is the devs' job to have their characters be written and perceived in alignment with their intentions. That in itself is not a failure. The problem is that they don't seem to have had a clear, consistent vision of what that alignment was, or how her portrayal in one part of the story would relate to other parts.

[Kazemon15]

It's called symbolism. Look it up. That's what the entire cutscene is. Not "poor storytelling" or whatever. We were told several times how the scene plays out correctly by other characters. It's a cinematic symbolic scene made to up the entertainment of it. That's all it is. It's basically a mix of the symbolic version of being cast out of the Garden of Eden and the walk of atonement from which Jesus took unto himself to absorb all the sins of humanity (sins = black stuff on Venat).

[Lunaxia]

While I agree it was haphazard, it is the devs' job to have their characters be written and perceived in alignment with their intentions. That in itself is not a failure. The problem is that they don't seem to have had a clear, consistent vision of what that alignment was, or how her portrayal in one part of the story would relate to other parts.

That's what I was alluding to by "course correcting the plot", i.e. amending what we've seen so far to make their current chosen path more palatable or credible, even if it conflicts with previous information or impressions.

Perhaps that wasn't as clear in my post as it seemed in my head - or not as obvious for those who don't frequent certain threads in this section of the forum, hah.