They need a stepping stone between EX and savage.

[Jeeqbit]

Wasn't this what the criterion dungeons was supposed to be?

No, criterion dungeons were supposed to be the FFXIV version of Mythic+ from WoW, which was heavily requested and even brought up to Yoshi-P in interviews.

[DrWho2010]

a Mythic+ system would never work in XIV because there is no reward structure that is viable for such content.

[RobynDaBank]

Criterion is missing a lot to be close to M+ in resemblance...

[Ivtrix]

The first couple of fights in a savage tier are the stepping stones.

And the later bosses are the stepping stones into ultimate

[Liam_Harper]

No, criterion dungeons were supposed to be the FFXIV version of Mythic+ from WoW, which was heavily requested and even brought up to Yoshi-P in interviews.

But they weren't. They couldn't be further from Mythic+.

Mythic+ in Legion I could just grab a few guild or friends and run some keys that were at a suitable level for our skill. It was challenging, but still a fun activity where you could hop in and get a few runs down. They were also actual dungeons, lots of mobs to aoe, large interesting environments and so on.

Criterion is smaller scale Savage boss progression. Nothing more. You can go in and wipe for 4 hours on the first boss. Not exactly a bad thing in itself, but we already have Savage bosses. I personally have a static and P8 and Ultimate to run so I'm not interested right now and more casual players aren't into Savage prog either. Criterion caters to a small niche while anyone could jump into Mythic+ because it scaled in difficulty.

They missed the mark entirely.

[Jettinson]

Bozja felt the right step along with duels but since it uses an additional thing with lost actions/skills it can easily trivialise the content.

I remember fighting Lyon for the first time in a duel which sadly I didn't have dispel and die to the wind stuff but the difficulty felt fine.

[Jeeqbit]

But they weren't. They couldn't be further from Mythic+.

I suppose if that is what Mythic+ is, then they didn't quite get it right.

They did advertise how Variant dungeons could scale in difficulty, so maybe that was supposed to be the easier versions. I have only tried it solo, but I have my doubts that it gets much harder with a full party? And then it doesn't give the rewards that Criterion does, so it forces you to do Criterion difficulty regardless if you want the rewards.

[DrWho2010]

except the rewards for doing Criterion don't make it worth doing unless you're in it just for the challenge of itself.

[Tiramu]

If so, then not much, or it's subjective (depending on item level or role in the extreme). I can't think of much other than maybe POTD or HoH.

I was more going for Ex and Savage content tbh. Like Sephirot and Thordan Ex's are comparable to some Savage.

But, while it may well be subjective, I think some late ShB and EW normals give some earlier Ex's a run for their money.

[Amarande]

But they weren't. They couldn't be further from Mythic+.

Mythic+ in Legion I could just grab a few guild or friends and run some keys that were at a suitable level for our skill. It was challenging, but still a fun activity where you could hop in and get a few runs down. They were also actual dungeons, lots of mobs to aoe, large interesting environments and so on.

Criterion caters to a small niche while anyone could jump into Mythic+ because it scaled in difficulty.

And it will doubtless be an even smaller niche.

For all its reputation, Mythic+ meanwhile is, in fact, one of the easiest endgame things to get into even later on in a season: the scaling difficulty makes it much easier to get your feet wet (and encourage more gun-shy friends and guild mates to give it a try, because in most seasons the so called "+2" simply adds the timer and Fortified/Tyrannical weekly mechanic and otherwise is just as chill as the standard Mythic difficulty normally is). Then there is the key mechanic, which means that even the newest M+ participant has something to put on the line ("my key" tends to fill groups pretty fast, even if you would struggle to get an invite otherwise, although RIP if you get stuck with a key for a dungeon you hate. Also RIP because you have to do that dungeon anyway because of the scoring mechanic everyone adheres to like religion, but "my key" tends to make up for that pretty often too anyways).

Compare FFXIV's community mindset where you are expected to FOMO rush any remotely challenging content, otherwise the playerbase bifurcates into people that mostly won't give you the time of day till you clear it on somebody else's time, and folks that either have two left feet or, more often, are simply not interested in even attempting hard mode content, leaving latecomers more or less at the bottom of a ladder that no longer has bottom rungs.

Also unlike Mythic+ (and WoW pugging in general) where the leader usually gets some cred just from being willing to step up and lead, FFXIV's culture has a habit of treating the leader as just another member of the community (to the point that PF leaders often don't even get to make decisions about strategies etc. - that was decided at data center level in the early weeks and is expected to be adhered to, even if the strategy is clearly stercus canis as our Garlean friends would say), so if you didn't get the exp during the socially expected window, even putting yourself out there as a lead is of only minimal effectiveness ...

They missed the mark entirely.

Hopefully. There is that twinge of fear that despite the record number of new players, the Savage raider contingent is in fact "the mark" at this point in FFXIV's life cycle.