Should Dark Knight get a Rework?

[Shurrikhan]

I have a feeling it and FoF are going to be merged into a single buff move that will effect all of PLD's moves

Do you want them to be merged, though? For productive discussion, we might as well set out early on what we're okay with losing and what we aren't. I would think that A<->B flow between magic and physical phases, however each might be pulled off (e.g., be that phase-opener and spam or spam and phase-closer), is pretty iconic to PLD at this point and would be rather missed, identity-wise.


Or, to put it more vividly, if the expected result can only ever be shit-on-stale-and-wet-bread, after all, it's not particularly worth discussing the specifics of the fecal matter or the overaged bread grain, I would think? So if we're to get specific, we might as well seek out / narrow things down to decent food in the first place.

[RyuDragnier]

Do you want them to be merged, though? For productive discussion, we might as well set out early on what we're okay with losing and what we aren't. I would think that A<->B flow between magic and physical phases, however each might be pulled off (e.g., be that phase-opener and spam or spam and phase-closer), is pretty iconic to PLD at this point and would be rather missed, identity-wise.

I don't, no. But I am fully aware that part of the reason PLD is having difficulties is simply because it's sustained and doesn't really have a burst window. Meaning they have to condense that sustain into burst. The easiest way to do that is to combine the two buff windows into one singular burst window. Which requires moving stuff around. Snce the spells are already instants and there's no way in hell they're gonna remove the Royal Authority combo from being the main combo, that means the spell window has to be combined with the melee window. Thus, spells will likely become oGCDs. That's my logic anyway, but since we know SE doesn't really delve into logic much with tanks (see DRK), there's no telling what we'll get.

[Jeeqbit]

"Paladin rotation will change drastically"
"Paladin mains take note"
"Won't go over it now"

Yes, as a Paladin I'm living in fear. That's such an awful thing to say to Paladin mains. "Your class will change drastically. Very possibly in a really bad way. And we're not going to say how." So I might or might not have to switch job in 6.3 while I'm in the middle of raiding.

Everyone's expectations for what will change are probably wrong and here is why. They have to consider lower level gameplay. If they didn't have to consider that, it would have been changed already. Remember that the burst at lower levels is Fight or Flight, while at higher levels it's all split between Fight or Flight and Requiescat. If they buff the Fight or Flight potency, it could make the lower level potency too high. So they buffed the Requiescat phase instead because we only get access to that at higher levels.

The problem of course, is that Requiescat happens every minute, not every 2 minutes. But if Requiescat is changed to happen every 2 minutes, it takes the rotation back to Heavensward where most of the time you just do Goring Blade and Royal Authority spam most of the time, with the only difference being Atonements.

Changing the Requiescat timing could also affect the damage output at lower levels that weren't designed for a 2 minute burst, but if they buff the melee attacks to compensate then it could overpower them at even lower levels. So we should all remember just how much thought SE has to put into it that we are not.

This is why they need to rework it instead of just making a minor adjustment. For example, they could try to maintain the rotation as it is but just add an additional buff that increases damage every 2 minutes, but that still means designing the new ability, the icon, the animation and everything else. I think that this extra ability would be clunky when we are already pressing Fight or Flight or Requiescat. So it all needs a lot of thought and that is obviously what they are taking the time to do.

But without any information on what they are thinking of changing, it certainly leaves a lot of us in fear as Paladins.

[Rehayem]

What I'd like to see in DRK is more sustainability, because at the moment, it has the worst HP recovery method of all the tanks.

[Oizen]

What I'd like to see in DRK is more sustainability, because at the moment, it has the worst HP recovery method of all the tanks.

I'd just like to see Abyssal Drain restored to what it used to be.
Its not the AOE version of Carve and Spit and SE was stupid for trying to make it that, and honestly I've been finding DRK to be an absolute nightmare to play in lv 60-70 content due to how much its lacking all the defensive tools its lost from that area. There are lv 60 dungeons where DRK honestly cannot do anything except pull a single pack at a time, it feels awful.

If SE ever decides to address this issue (they wont) I hope they focus on lv60 or lower skills and not add traits to Oblation or TBN.
Focus on thngs like Abyssal Drain or even Dark Mind honestly, or god forbid return some of its missing tools that it used to have to get through this content.

[Midareyukki]

I'd just like to see Abyssal Drain restored to what it used to be.
Its not the AOE version of Carve and Spit and SE was stupid for trying to make it that, and honestly I've been finding DRK to be an absolute nightmare to play in lv 60-70 content due to how much its lacking all the defensive tools its lost from that area. There are lv 60 dungeons where DRK honestly cannot do anything except pull a single pack at a time, it feels awful.

If SE ever decides to address this issue (they wont) I hope they focus on lv60 or lower skills and not add traits to Oblation or TBN.
Focus on thngs like Abyssal Drain or even Dark Mind honestly, or god forbid return some of its missing tools that it used to have to get through this content.

This, along with the stuff they've recently said about healers, sounds like they just don't play their content at all. And if true, Yoshida had no business talking crap about WoW.

Because one thing is going into BLM and clearly seeing the same resources and mechanics being used on the AoE rotation. Another thing is looking at C&S, looking at Abyssal Drain, and going "ah yes, two OGCDs, lump 'em up".
And what I think is funny is how WAR at lv 60 works fine. PLD at lv 60 works as intended. DRK at lv 60 is missing half its kit, and TBN won't show up for another 10 levels. At that time, PLD can already proc blocks and WAR's already slurping on HP. Abyssal Drain? That's just a one-off button, you need to wait until the pack is almost dead to use it again. It's like they don't play their older content, which characters invariably have to go through in order to get to current, relevant endgame content.
Same for TBN. We saw all the tanks get their 15s skill be upgraded, but DRK just had Oblation instead. WAR basically healing itself to full? That's fine. A 25% shield off your max HP? No, we can't have that get any added effect, it's too powerful. And then they wonder why people had them rework Living Dead.

And that's not even opening the can of worms that's Enhanced Unmend. I get why it's a thing, I don't get why it has to be a trait at lv 84. It's a trait for Enhanced Plunge at best. Not to mention PLD has a whole ranged phase and WAR has better mobility. The only one who arguably would have it worse than DRK is GNB because their Rough Divide isn't cut down by Lightning Shot... but I'd be hard-pressed to call Enhanced Unmend any more useful than holding one charge of Plunge/Rough Divide.

But hey. At least Living Dead's doing better. That counts as sustainability, right?

[Jeeqbit]

I'd just like to see Abyssal Drain restored to what it used to be.
Its not the AOE version of Carve and Spit and SE was stupid for trying to make it that

Carve and Spit always had the problem that it was pointless in most aoe situations. Sure, if you needed the burst of MP it was useful and maybe in Shadowbringers that could contribute to part of a Flood of Shadow, but it wasn't really worth it, especially when trash would die quickly most of the time. It was worth saving for the real enemy, the boss, that you were about to fight.

Meanwhile, Abyssal Drain was pretty useless on a single target. The potency per second wasn't good on a single target and nor was the heal. It made a lot of sense for them to do this, but I admit I found it annoying to get used to and didn't even notice at first until it felt like they were both weaving together too easily.

I've been finding DRK to be an absolute nightmare to play in lv 60-70 content due to how much its lacking all the defensive tools its lost from that area.

I haven't, because they still have the standard tools that all tanks have there, such as Shadow Wall, Rampart, Reprisal, Arm's Length and Low Blow. It's even better now that their invuln is useful. One thing that I find helps is to use raid food, because the vitality doesn't sync properly and the health boost helps, so that might make me bias.

It's not like Paladin has it much better. They just have a Sheltron and random blocks, with no self heals at all unless they use Clemency. Even if DRK has it worse below level 70, PLD actually has it worse at level 70 because their abilities do not compete with The Blackest Night.

[RyuDragnier]

Carve and Spit always had the problem that it was pointless in most aoe situations. Sure, if you needed the burst of MP it was useful and maybe in Shadowbringers that could contribute to part of a Flood of Shadow, but it wasn't really worth it, especially when trash would die quickly most of the time. It was worth saving for the real enemy, the boss, that you were about to fight.

Meanwhile, Abyssal Drain was pretty useless on a single target. The potency per second wasn't good on a single target and nor was the heal. It made a lot of sense for them to do this, but I admit I found it annoying to get used to and didn't even notice at first until it felt like they were both weaving together too easily.

CnS has always been on a cooldown, AD never had one until ShB, it only used the MP as its cooldown. AD really needs to be buffed in the Cure Potency department, 200 per hit is an absolute joke, 400 cure potency per hit would fine.

[Midareyukki]

Carve and Spit always had the problem that it was pointless in most aoe situations. Sure, if you needed the burst of MP it was useful and maybe in Shadowbringers that could contribute to part of a Flood of Shadow, but it wasn't really worth it, especially when trash would die quickly most of the time. It was worth saving for the real enemy, the boss, that you were about to fight.

Meanwhile, Abyssal Drain was pretty useless on a single target. The potency per second wasn't good on a single target and nor was the heal. It made a lot of sense for them to do this, but I admit I found it annoying to get used to and didn't even notice at first until it felt like they were both weaving together too easily.

I haven't, because they still have the standard tools that all tanks have there, such as Shadow Wall, Rampart, Reprisal, Arm's Length and Low Blow. It's even better now that their invuln is useful. One thing that I find helps is to use raid food, because the vitality doesn't sync properly and the health boost helps, so that might make me bias.

It's not like Paladin has it much better. They just have a Sheltron and random blocks, with no self heals at all unless they use Clemency. Even if DRK has it worse below level 70, PLD actually has it worse at level 70 because their abilities do not compete with The Blackest Night.

I don't really get this argument though. By the same logic, so too is Xenoglossy useless on single target past Foul. There simply are skills meant to be used in AoE than they are in single target. That was never a problem.

The real problem is believing C&S and AD are the same skill. They're not. And if the devs think they are, then they need to play DRK more.

Because C&S was a high-damage cooldown. AD was an AoE sustain GCD. If anything, Shadowbringer has a lot more incommon with C&S than AD ever did.

It's fine for skills to not be useful in certain locations. You'd never use Fuga in single target, would you? Yet it's there. And guess what, it does the exact same as Hakaze. What they did was like looking at BRD's kit and assuming the equivalent of Rain of Death in Single Target was somehow Empyreal Arrow.

The effects don't match. AD was the go-to for sustainability in mob packs. TBN was a shield, but AD let you heal back up a bit. Now every tank has a form of sustainability on top of defences and shields, yet DRK's one and only skill for it is on a 1 minute cooldown. A 1 minute cooldown conflated with a skill that doesn't give any sustainability, only shares the MP recovery aspect.

And, again, had they played any iteration of DRK, they'd know that Abyssal Drain was something you'd do fairly often in AoE pulls. Carve and Spit was something you pressed on cooldown. Not the same thing by a long shot.

[Shurrikhan]

And, again, had they played any iteration of DRK, they'd know that Abyssal Drain was something you'd do fairly often in AoE pulls. Carve and Spit was something you pressed on cooldown. Not the same thing by a long shot.

True, but what else was something "you'd do fairly often in AoE pulls" (and would have no redeeming quality opposite Abyssal Drain after the removal of enmity-high skills)? Unleash. That, not C&S, was the primary reason for it shifting gears.

Similarly, they intended to make a matched VFX AoE mirror to their new DA-direct attack (Edge of Darkness/Shadow) against which a no-CD oGCD Abyssal Drain would be redundant (and leave no real redeeming feature for Flood).

Retaining its pre-squish potency (i.e., buffing it slightly) and making the self-heal automatic and free (instead of at MP cost), then, seems pretty logical.

That move wasn't a matter of forgetting what Abyssal Drain was previously supposed to do. It was simply that they prioritized their new way of packaging Dark Arts over it and thus pushed it towards a more powerful CD position instead. AD, a GCD AoE with optional MP spending for self-healing was no longer possible to differentiate from Unleash, a GCD AoE with enmity mods (no longer a thing), nor was there room for AD as a weaker no-CD MP spender, since that'd be redundant with Flood.

Thereafter, they listened to the earlier complaints of a 150-potency attack not feeling like it was worth its weave-space in the opener and put it on a shared CD with CnS as an attempt at QoL.

No one was "believing that [StB or HW] C&S and AD are the same skill." But, due to additions elsewhere and the change t oDA, they were since both made into simply AoE and ST variants on "damage+" {MP or HP} skills on CDs.

If that healing weren't best rotated in early in an AoE pull (i.e., where it'd have been used for damage anyways) and DRK had additional use for MP outside of the phases you'd want to dump MP in anyways, then they would have been significantly distinct. But that's not the case.

(Even then, however, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be placed on a shared cooldown; sharing that recast time allows each of the two to be individually stronger (and therefore the DRK to have a higher ceiling each on AoE and ST, using the appropriate option instead of having to muddle in hybrid purposes). CD-sharing isn't inherently bad, especially given that DRK has more than enough means to regain the missing 1 APM however they'd wish if that were an apparent issue.)
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I don't really get this argument though. By the same logic, so too is Xenoglossy useless on single target past Foul. There simply are skills meant to be used in AoE than they are in single target. That was never a problem.

That one just comes down to subjective preference. Those who are fine with spending buttons just on checking whether the enemy/enemies is/are singular or plural and hitting the correct A|B option accordingly will like those purely ST|AoE action pairs. Those who don't, won't.

Most BLMs I've spoken to were not fans of Xenoglossy once Foul likewise became instant cast, since it relegated Xeno to solely a mechanic of "Is the enemy count greater than 1?" See also the many SAM threads on why Senei as a separate action was bloat and Guren should have just retained its former damage and fall-off (current Senei damage on first target, current Guren damage on all thereafter).

Prior to its giving MP, (ShB / CD-based) Abyssal Drain at least had more distinction from CnS than did those actions above. But, I could also understand if some wouldn't mind seeing either CnS or AD consolidated into the other with falloff, or to axe either among Drain or Flood entirely to consolidate those two's features -- in rejection of either old iconic VFX (AD) or the devs' preferred VFX pair (Edge+Flood).

You'd never use Fuga in single target, would you? Yet it's there.

But there's also a difference between having one ST|AoE mirror, especially where there are at least some distinct advantages to the latter (see Sonic Thrust for uptime on Neo Exdeath, Fuga-Oka/Mangetsu on adds that'd die from DoTs anyways while running back to the boss's reentry position for the higher rate of Sen and Kenki generation -- or, to push Sen sync ahead by 1 GCD -- etc.) and applying it to nearly every offensive action. Take Shadowbringer Bard, for instance. Did we really need an AoE and ST variant each of our GCD spam, or DoT capitalizing attack, our River of Blood charges, etc.?