Samurai is extremely oppressive to play against in any PvP scenario

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

SAM is 100% overpowered. Compare it to MCH, who they determined Chainsaw to be 'too powerful' when it was a 3% chance to kill every eight actions, including waiting for recharges. That needed to be brought down to 95% damage, because a 3% chance of 100% damage was too much.

A single SAM can throw up Hissatu and then LB to 100% any number of people that touched him for 5s? Make it worth 20,000 damage, and a 3% chance of 100%, and it's almost balanced.

The problem isn't one-shotting per se, the problem is that Chain Saw is a random low % chance. Nothing is more BS than getting insta-gibbed because you lucked a 1:33 chance roll, whereas you have a living and breathing chance against a Samurai using Zantetsuken if you have superior reaction time or awareness about the Samurai and Chiten. Also Zantetsuken is tied to the Limit Break charge, which is sadly not visible in Frontlines / RW.

Don't get me wrong, WHEN you get the Zantetsuken retaliation it is strong, but it has counter play. And that counter play has counterplay too if the Samurai uses Meikyo Shisui or if you chain Chiten after Guard for example.

What counterplay is there to a 3% chance (near) oneshot? Oh no MCH activated Analysis and has Chainsaw loaded, better play around that.

[Ransu]

SAM is 100% overpowered. Compare it to MCH, who they determined Chainsaw to be 'too powerful' when it was a 3% chance to kill every eight actions, including waiting for recharges. That needed to be brought down to 95% damage, because a 3% chance of 100% damage was too much.

A single SAM can throw up Hissatu and then LB to 100% any number of people that touched him for 5s? Make it worth 20,000 damage, and a 3% chance of 100%, and it's almost balanced.

Chainsaw is a rotational move. SAM LB will happen once a match, "maybe" twice if its a longer match, and in crystal you'll basically never see a SAM successfully LB anyone or at best they will get 1 person who wasn't paying attention.

Contrast that to the fact that on MCH I can get free kills left and right with their burst setups compared to SAM that has to chase everyone around with all their big hits being casted skills. SAM is not OP.

[BaroLlyonesse]

The problem isn't one-shotting per se, the problem is that Chain Saw is a random low % chance. Nothing is more BS than getting insta-gibbed because you lucked a 1:33 chance roll, whereas you have a living and breathing chance against a Samurai using Zantetsuken if you have superior reaction time or awareness about the Samurai and Chiten. Also Zantetsuken is tied to the Limit Break charge, which is sadly not visible in Frontlines / RW.

I would counter that nothing is more BS than getting insta-gibbed because a SAM moved into the clipped edge of AoE and can retaliate instantly for 100% damage against multiple people. If they wanted to balance that properly, the appropriate would be to give SAM a 3% chance as well, or have the 100% work on only one target and the rest take LB damage.

If I see a SAM with Guard that is not retreating, I know exactly what they are doing and not to aim at them; the SAM can react to MCH the exact same way by watching for Air Anchor Ready and knowing to rush to take them out. So yes, 'better play around that', the same way you play around a MNK DFA Kicker, or (before patch) a PLD+WHM, or any other current meta. If you have to ambush the former and keep a Reaper/Dancer LB to counter the latter, there's no reason why it should be an issue to see MCH, go 'that guy dies first', and then either have a kill on your side or on theirs.

The argument comes down to 'what was this job meant to do'. Before the DR change, MCH LB would drop at 50% or less, just like a NIN assassinate hop (with the exception that the NIN can just keep hopping if partnered with people who know to drop multiple AOE on a pack), and the seeming intent of MCH was to do exactly that: Massive damage on LB, and a chance to simply drop targets. It's evident that SAM and MCH were designed to have the same function in PvP at different ranges (don't close to SAM, close to MCH being the only difference), but when it came time to reevaluate, only one side got nerfed.

[EDIT:] tl;dr: SAM does not need 100% if MCH does not need it.

[Elfidan]

I mean samurai has always wombo combo'd people in small scale. Back in SB when they came into the game they literally waited to get three stickers then killed someone. Sometimes people would quit if one team had a SAM and the other didn't. The reason MCH chainsaw even K.O.s people is because they are basically carbon copying it from FF6. Your role isn't really glass cannon, it's swiss army dps. Just like ninja you have pretty much anything you could need.

[Valence]

Even though A.chainsaw is a stupid ability that makes no sense whatsoever, I take solace in that any MCH actually wasting analyzes on it is probably underperforming as a result 95% of the time.

[Ransu]

Even though A.chainsaw is a stupid ability that makes no sense whatsoever, I take solace in that any MCH actually wasting analyzes on it is probably underperforming as a result 95% of the time.

Ya, good MCH players are not wasting analysis on chainsaw.

[Esmoire]

Just because counterplay exists, doesn't mean it's fun. Playing against SAM LB has had a few moments where they know that I know that they know they have LB and we are playing chicken, but all in all it is usually not a fun experience, especially when you trigger it with splash damage. You can adjust by not using anything with cleave if it could trigger chiten, but is this what we really want? It's a bad mechanic, as is any instant kill. It's not fun.

[Valence]

I think SAM LB would be more enjoyable to play around in actual team games where people are on voice and know how to deflect it by shielding somebody and making them trigger it on purpose, or stun the SAM at the right time and LOS it out.

But we'll never get team games so... meh

Otherwise even when hitting without the debuff it's still a nice AoE. I'd totally be up for the devs to change it into a bigger long range line AoE kind of deal, with increased benefits on targets with the debuff (but not 100% HP). You know, kinda like DRG gets a higher damage on players right at the epicenter...

[Latarma]

I still think each job tank dps and healers all need to reword yes again all bs one shot kill crap removed or all dps get a one shot kill i mean fair is fair yes?

[AnnRam]

If you play SMN and put your little shield up (has low cd) debuff - LB wont kill you lol.

I tested it yesterday in Onsal. I attacked a SAM with chiten up while having my shield up and his LB only hit me for 25k-32k hp.
Basically SMN is inmune to that garbage gimmick playstyle.