SCH concept changes

[KarmaYraeon]

This still doesn't work because you're losing all the free healing you get from your faerie for half a minute.

To be fair, ideally it would be great to just change dissipation to something else entirely like sch flavour Temperance, but the idea was that you would basically get the bulk of faerie healing but souped up while also empowering your own healing. If they basically turned you into your fairy while buffing your healing by 20%, I imagine you would be able to cover 10 casts of Embrace pretty easily. Souped up Whispering Dawn for instance would be 112 extra potency per person. In an 8-man that is already worth almost 5 casts of embrace in a single gcd. Throw in Fey Blessing for another 64 potency per person is almost 3 more Embrace casts on its own too. This is of course ignoring other healing you might do as well. For instance its more likely that as a scholar you're probably going to Dissipation/Assimilation during downtime/before a big mechanic to get the added healing on a critlo which would mean over 216 potency on everyone's shields, and 432 extra potency on the initial target. The adlo cast alone already covers the embrace healing lost and then some.

This all being said, like I started with, this is just grasping at straws for if they absolutely insist on keeping dissipation as it is with eating the faerie. Ideally it is changed to literally anything else but oh well. Working with what we can I guess. Also the aesthetic bias of being interested in the idea of sch getting wings as well...

[KarmaYraeon]

Does this restriction still apply to the player when Assimilation is in effect?

Honestly I think it would be really nice if you weren't restricted like the fairy is. It would give scholar a really solid consistent heal while moving. Of course its likely that fey union wouldn't actually be available at all and the only faerie actions available would just be WD, FI and FB but those are still solid options to have +20% on.

[ty_taurus]

Here's my question:

Why do we need to have moves that erase the faerie? What do we gain from having tools that cut out your access to other tools, or drop one form of healing to access another, that we wouldn't have if we just didn't have actions like Dissipation, Aetherpact, and Summon Seraph? What would we lose if we killed Dissipation and replace it with something that just increases healing potency and grants you Aetherflow without cutting the faerie out of the equation--or allowed the faerie to act during Fey Union, and allowed Summon Seraph to also use Fey Union?

I'm just genuinely interested in learning about what makes these things worth salvaging when we could just have tools that gave us benefits without dropping Eos/Selene? Why is allowing Eos/Selene to just stay out all the time, or be replaced with a Seraph that can still access everything Eos and Selene can access somehow detrimental to SCH's design? What is there to fight for?

[ForsakenRoe]

Here's my question:

Why do we need to have moves that erase the faerie? What do we gain from having tools that cut out your access to other tools, or drop one form of healing to access another, that we wouldn't have if we just didn't have actions like Dissipation, Aetherpact, and Summon Seraph? What would we lose if we killed Dissipation and replace it with something that just increases healing potency and grants you Aetherflow without cutting the faerie out of the equation--or allowed the faerie to act during Fey Union, and allowed Summon Seraph to also use Fey Union?

I'm just genuinely interested in learning about what makes these things worth salvaging when we could just have tools that gave us benefits without dropping Eos/Selene? Why is allowing Eos/Selene to just stay out all the time, or be replaced with a Seraph that can still access everything Eos and Selene can access somehow detrimental to SCH's design? What is there to fight for?

IMO this Assimilation idea fixes pretty much every problem that SCH has regarding the non-compatibility between Dissipation, Fey Union, and Summon Seraph, assuming that using Fey Union during it does not stop the SCH from attacking/moving. We'd be like a fairy themed Mercy Overwatch (oh wait, Mercy has a fairy skin), that'd be pretty cool and very visually different from the other healers. Ironically I had thought of a 'healing tether' idea for either SGE (because Kardia) or AST (rework Synastry), where any ally that the tether touches is healed too, but trying to coordinate positioning for that would probably suck, so this version is probably better (and simpler to implement I'd assume).

Now when I say 'pretty much every problem' I mean there's one that still lingers, and that's Seraph. But, I think that's less an issue due to this idea, and moreso a lingering issue of Seraph itself. There's not really any reason we have to 'summon Seraph' code wise. Consolation could have been an ability that the fairy itself uses, without having to have it's model change. It's like this just for the 'wow so flashy' hype in the trailer, and it comes with all kinds of baggage like ghosting abilities (still), being an extra redundant OGCD weave before we get the actual 'useful part', and locking us out of other skills for some reason, like Union and Fey Blessing. The only thing Seraph 'does', is empower Embrace to also have a 100% shield, and give access to Consolation. Perhaps it'd be better if Seraph was deleted, and Consolation was moved to be a standard OGCD with 2 charges (60s CD). This way it'd also be buffed by Assimilation's 20%. The W.Dawn and Fey Illumination reskins are, well, reskins, completely identical in effect, so those can be ignored. Then the only thing we 'lose' is Seraphic Veil. When viewed like this, it becomes apparent that Seraph is nothing more than 'Rouse, but with a pretty VFX and infinitely more jank'.

I assume the reason Dissipation still exists as it does is to keep some aspect of 'risk vs reward', or 'you need to weigh up if the short term boost of 3 aetherflow is worth the loss of fairy for 30s'. If it just gave you the 20% boost and the aetherflow, without doing anything to the fairy, it might as well just be Divine Seal from WHM or Largesse from SB role actions. WHM has a 'costless' 20% healing boost with Temperance, AST with Neutral Sect. There'd be cries of 'homogenization' from the rooftops. If Dissipation has been in the game since HW, without having it's main 'pain point' (the fairy is removed from play) removed, only addressed with QOL (the fairy now auto-returns, used to have to manually resummon), then the devs clearly want it to stay this way for whatever reason. I guess the fairy interaction is what makes it 'unique' for better or worse. At the moment, many would argue it's for the worse, I think this Assimilation idea would make it 'for the better', even without touching Seraph. You keep access to your fairy skills, but they're now centered on the SCH (so now your personal position is important), you can (maybe) use Fey Union on the move, the only thing you'd lose out on is Embrace.

This shows that the 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH' meme only applies to the people designing the class, and not the ones who play it. Which is kinda depressing in it's own right

[Sparkthor]

This shows that the 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH' meme only applies to the people designing the class, and not the ones who play it. Which is kinda depressing in it's own right

Seeing many people with different opinion of what to do to improve the scholar shows IMO players don't really know what to do either. I think they need to somepoint just delete some healing abilties what feel uninteressant, unwhelming or clunky to use. Dissipation is probably one what can be simply stripped away and few people would regret it.

I also get Seraphine could just be a ability what reinforce the fairy for some time, but people want flashy ability, and seraphine at least is pretty. On the other hand, i always feel fey union as e "meh" abity. It feels so clunky to use, and the fact the entire fairy gauge which deplete itself when you die is only for this skill disapoint me. But it's a very flexible tool so maybe it's just me.

About why dissipation is still here, I also suspect they are not confident about deleting last ability gain from one extension.

[ForsakenRoe]

Seeing many people with different opinion of what to do to improve the scholar shows IMO players don't really know what to do either. I think they need to somepoint just delete some healing abilties what feel uninteressant, unwhelming or clunky to use. Dissipation is probably one what can be simply stripped away and few people would regret it.

I also get Seraphine could just be a ability what reinforce the fairy for some time, but people want flashy ability, and seraphine at least is pretty. On the other hand, i always feel fey union as e "meh" abity. It feels so clunky to use, and the fact the entire fairy gauge which deplete itself when you die is only for this skill disapoint me. But it's a very flexible tool so maybe it's just me.

About why dissipation is still here, I also suspect they are not confident about deleting last ability gain from one extension.

The devs said 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH', implying they didn't have any new ideas. While the players here do have ideas, just different ones. The point is that, despite not agreeing on one solid direction, the fact is the players can suggest multiple different directions the devs could have gone in, but didn't. Consensus on one idea isn't the point. The existence of any idea at all is the point, because it shows the devs were not as 'out of room to move SCH' as they seemed to imply they were.

I hadn't considered it before, but it's possible there's some kind of 'bias' towards keeping capstone skills (mostly as they're usually the flashiest ones). I can't think of any that have been outright deleted, only moved around in the levelling process (eg MCH Ricochet was the 60 capstone at one point, now it's 50) or reworked in effect. Well, unless you count full reworks of things, eg the card system for AST leading to Sleeve Draw being killed. It'd also serve to explain why some, frankly, not great skills have survived the chopping block for so long too, such as Tornado Kick for Monk living all the way till now, where it's actually useful (as a pre-90 version of Phantom Rush), or Dragonfire Dive (please god give it a trait upgrade it's so lame) or Sidewinder (same as DFD, it's kinda lame to hit for 300p in this world where even tanks have 900-1200p hits). If there were such a bias at work, it's more likely that a skill that is a 'crapstone' would be kept around with a reworked effect, rather than deleted outright.

And Fey Union is probably kept around because without it, there's no reason for the Fey Gauge to exist. With the cost removed from Fey Blessing, Union remains the only spender. Personally I thought partway through SHB that Blessing should have been made an AOE equivalent of Union, pulsing an AOE HOT effect for each 10 gauge it consumes. But then that'd give SCH another regen-type effect and that'd run counter to the Pure/Barrier split I didn't know they were going to go for

[Sparkthor]

To me, dev got idea. Everyone got idea, but none of them was able to pass 1st discussion, or at least is solid enough to pass 1st play tests. I also think they got idea similar to our, if they consider to add more dps tools to healer, which is something we cannot be certain of (Yoshi-p wanna embrace pure heal concept back in time). On the other hand, I supposed EW was a test about shield healer and pure healer concepts. IMO, they can push the concept further, as to me, this 1st try is sucessful.

I agree with you on DFD, it's a poor ability now and could be remove/rework (I put a piece on being tied on cd with spine dive for being it's aoe counterpart). Sidewinder could get some love, but 300 potency isn't that bad as ranged potency are lower because they got a trait which increase their skill dommage by 20% (and 30% for mages). On ability cut, i cannot think about any healing ability from being removed. But it's something what will be needed at some point. It could also lead to more specification between shield and pure concepts.

[ty_taurus]

I know exactly what I'd do with SCH. I see several very clear directions you could take the job that would create such a stronger identity both visually and mechanically. There would be some reworking involved in any of these examples, which is fine but would require the resources to accomplish during a new expansion, but all of them involve accepting that the current healer direction is awful and needs to change.

[Osmond]

Hmmmm, eeeeeeeh. The more ppl think their change is better, it’s gets worse the more you think about it. Best to keep it simple than to drastically change abilities, which force to change every toolset to other healer jobs which in the end becomes a pain and a time waster.

The only thing I can see them change is fey union and permanently remove energy drain. May as well give union 2 buttons to replace energy drain, just keep the single regen and the other just a party nuke that gives all the above that sch does, small cure, shield, mitigation, and regen depending on cost. Another auto queen/soul voice tool. Simple, yet effective.

The more I play SCH, I don’t want it to be DPS focused, but more focused on shield/mitigation. Sage can be the more DPS focused.

[AnotherPerson]

This still doesn't work because you're losing all the free healing you get from your faerie for half a minute. Deleting a chunk of your healing toolkit to get more healing just doesn't make sense no matter how you want to spin it. And I'm not trying to say you're a strong proponent of erasing the faerie; you're trying to find a way to make this idea work since SE seems hell-bent on swatting the faerie out of gameplay as frequently as possible, but it's on them to just accept that this is shitty design and no one wants it.

If you're going to yeet your faerie across the room and kill a chunk of free healing, the rewards needs to be pretty extraordinary. More healing doesn't and will not cut it. A major burst of damage might, but then you now have to gimp your own healing output at regular intervals in order to engage with your burst window, which isn't a great thing either. There's really no answer that isn't awful in some regard.

Rather than trying to bargain for a less awful Dissipation, just delete Dissipation. It's what SCH players have wanted since 3.0.

Not necessarily, since Assimilation boosts all healing actions, so Whispering Dawn, Aetherpact, and Fey Blessing will all receive potency changes. The added bonuses of Aetherflow returning basically creates a horizontal shift in resources (moving the power of sustained Embrace casts into Whispering Dawn, Aetherpact, Fey Blessing while simultaneously strengthening aetherflow healing + GCD shields). Provided that Aetherpact doesn't stop the Scholar from attacking on their own and is treated as a tether regen buff, it would be a good change, albeit long overdue.
At least this is much more preferable than the current Dissipation, which just eats up Embrace healing + locks you out of all your faerie skills without strengthening them in any way. It would allow a lot more flexibility in resource management and control without being useful for only DPS gain via Energy Drain spam.

I don't agree with simply deleting Dissipation. Every time they just delete a skill, they don't necessarily give anything back to replace it. IMO, it's a worse tradeoff since you don't even have ways for quick recovery afterwards if you consume all your resources, much less a replacement for what that skill can provide.