SCH concept changes

[Gemina]

It’s not a problem in the sense of it’s not a direct hinderance, but it’s very sloppy design and doesn’t feel good to use. A well-designed healer should never promote over healing, and optimized play should always result in an overhead value that is as close to 0% as possible, taking into consideration that sometimes necessary healing may bleed over slightly.

Aetherflow and Addersgall are both problematic in the sense they promote over healing. Even Energy Drain falls in the loop as it does return some HP. Very minimal but still unnecessary HP. I would say ED still edges it out ever so slightly because it still does some damage.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of either as they fall into a pet peeve I have with tying certain skils to multiple resources. Drives me absolutely batty that abilities with long CDs also require a charge of some sort. ED doesn't even feel good to use. The only benefit coming from preventing an overcap. And in low threat content its even worse having to burn up 2-3 charges on it.

What feels good imo, is building up a resource and have that skill or skills feel rewarding. Afflatus Misery, and Toxicon in an AoE scenario are great examples of this. And the resources are built up by sacrificing a GCD on healing that pays off a little later.

[ForsakenRoe]

Afflatus Misery, and Toxicon in an AoE scenario are great examples of this. And the resources are built up by sacrificing a GCD on healing that pays off a little later.

I wouldn't call Toxicon a good example of this, it's 330 to main target and 165 to the rest, Dyskrasia is 170 to all. So the extra damage is entirely funneled into one specific target. If we were to change the effect of E.Diagnosis to, idk 'grants Phlegmatic when barrier is fully broken, allowing the use of Phlegma without consuming a charge', that'd still not fully restore the damage lost to the application of the shield (2 330s is 660, vs the 600 of Phlegma) but it'd be a gain in AOE situations. Of course, this then brings up the issue of 'well what about 2 target fights like TEA' but that's a different can of worms

[Sparkthor]

Aside overcapping, having a flexible ressources for powerfull instant heal is something I think is enjoyable as healer. Even if it means to fully let them appart when going for easy duties like dungeons. And it would be hard to have Savage where theses ressources had to be managed to suceed and in the same time havong some management on dungeons where dommage takken are something like five time less.

[Osmond]

You know I thought expedient’s 2 min cooldown would be a problem, but it’s not. Most dungeons I’ve done, I barely use it. Instead I just sacred, recite/excog, protraction, and dps. As for raids…..the more I play it, the more of a good spot it’s in. It’s not like you use it for everything except instances like the dog stomp in P8S cause that hits like a truck even with succor and sacred. I don’t think they need to change or add expedient further. It’ll be too bloated..unnecessary.

If they were to buff the MP cost to instant cast adlo or succor. To compensate is to increase the shield %…….but it wouldn’t work so it’s not going to change. It’s pretty much in line with sage’s shield casting. Looks deceiving, but their cast time is the same. Sage’s animation looks like it’s not, but it is. SCH’s MP management is a bit better than sage since they aren’t forced to use their abilities to recover mp. SCH isn’t really struggling with MP issues. I guess it depends on the player.

Fey union as a mini-haima? It can work, but the potency of the shield will be very weak since you get full 10 ticks. 150 cure potency equivalent shield……..more like 100 potency to make it more enticing.

[ty_taurus]

Here's my question:

Why do we need to have moves that erase the faerie? What do we gain from having tools that cut out your access to other tools, or drop one form of healing to access another, that we wouldn't have if we just didn't have actions like Dissipation, Aetherpact, and Summon Seraph? What would we lose if we killed Dissipation and replace it with something that just increases healing potency and grants you Aetherflow without cutting the faerie out of the equation--or allowed the faerie to act during Fey Union, and allowed Summon Seraph to also use Fey Union?

I'm just genuinely interested in learning about what makes these things worth salvaging when we could just have tools that gave us benefits without dropping Eos/Selene? Why is allowing Eos/Selene to just stay out all the time, or be replaced with a Seraph that can still access everything Eos and Selene can access somehow detrimental to SCH's design? What is there to fight for?

[ForsakenRoe]

Here's my question:

Why do we need to have moves that erase the faerie? What do we gain from having tools that cut out your access to other tools, or drop one form of healing to access another, that we wouldn't have if we just didn't have actions like Dissipation, Aetherpact, and Summon Seraph? What would we lose if we killed Dissipation and replace it with something that just increases healing potency and grants you Aetherflow without cutting the faerie out of the equation--or allowed the faerie to act during Fey Union, and allowed Summon Seraph to also use Fey Union?

I'm just genuinely interested in learning about what makes these things worth salvaging when we could just have tools that gave us benefits without dropping Eos/Selene? Why is allowing Eos/Selene to just stay out all the time, or be replaced with a Seraph that can still access everything Eos and Selene can access somehow detrimental to SCH's design? What is there to fight for?

IMO this Assimilation idea fixes pretty much every problem that SCH has regarding the non-compatibility between Dissipation, Fey Union, and Summon Seraph, assuming that using Fey Union during it does not stop the SCH from attacking/moving. We'd be like a fairy themed Mercy Overwatch (oh wait, Mercy has a fairy skin), that'd be pretty cool and very visually different from the other healers. Ironically I had thought of a 'healing tether' idea for either SGE (because Kardia) or AST (rework Synastry), where any ally that the tether touches is healed too, but trying to coordinate positioning for that would probably suck, so this version is probably better (and simpler to implement I'd assume).

Now when I say 'pretty much every problem' I mean there's one that still lingers, and that's Seraph. But, I think that's less an issue due to this idea, and moreso a lingering issue of Seraph itself. There's not really any reason we have to 'summon Seraph' code wise. Consolation could have been an ability that the fairy itself uses, without having to have it's model change. It's like this just for the 'wow so flashy' hype in the trailer, and it comes with all kinds of baggage like ghosting abilities (still), being an extra redundant OGCD weave before we get the actual 'useful part', and locking us out of other skills for some reason, like Union and Fey Blessing. The only thing Seraph 'does', is empower Embrace to also have a 100% shield, and give access to Consolation. Perhaps it'd be better if Seraph was deleted, and Consolation was moved to be a standard OGCD with 2 charges (60s CD). This way it'd also be buffed by Assimilation's 20%. The W.Dawn and Fey Illumination reskins are, well, reskins, completely identical in effect, so those can be ignored. Then the only thing we 'lose' is Seraphic Veil. When viewed like this, it becomes apparent that Seraph is nothing more than 'Rouse, but with a pretty VFX and infinitely more jank'.

I assume the reason Dissipation still exists as it does is to keep some aspect of 'risk vs reward', or 'you need to weigh up if the short term boost of 3 aetherflow is worth the loss of fairy for 30s'. If it just gave you the 20% boost and the aetherflow, without doing anything to the fairy, it might as well just be Divine Seal from WHM or Largesse from SB role actions. WHM has a 'costless' 20% healing boost with Temperance, AST with Neutral Sect. There'd be cries of 'homogenization' from the rooftops. If Dissipation has been in the game since HW, without having it's main 'pain point' (the fairy is removed from play) removed, only addressed with QOL (the fairy now auto-returns, used to have to manually resummon), then the devs clearly want it to stay this way for whatever reason. I guess the fairy interaction is what makes it 'unique' for better or worse. At the moment, many would argue it's for the worse, I think this Assimilation idea would make it 'for the better', even without touching Seraph. You keep access to your fairy skills, but they're now centered on the SCH (so now your personal position is important), you can (maybe) use Fey Union on the move, the only thing you'd lose out on is Embrace.

This shows that the 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH' meme only applies to the people designing the class, and not the ones who play it. Which is kinda depressing in it's own right

[Sparkthor]

This shows that the 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH' meme only applies to the people designing the class, and not the ones who play it. Which is kinda depressing in it's own right

Seeing many people with different opinion of what to do to improve the scholar shows IMO players don't really know what to do either. I think they need to somepoint just delete some healing abilties what feel uninteressant, unwhelming or clunky to use. Dissipation is probably one what can be simply stripped away and few people would regret it.

I also get Seraphine could just be a ability what reinforce the fairy for some time, but people want flashy ability, and seraphine at least is pretty. On the other hand, i always feel fey union as e "meh" abity. It feels so clunky to use, and the fact the entire fairy gauge which deplete itself when you die is only for this skill disapoint me. But it's a very flexible tool so maybe it's just me.

About why dissipation is still here, I also suspect they are not confident about deleting last ability gain from one extension.

[ForsakenRoe]

Seeing many people with different opinion of what to do to improve the scholar shows IMO players don't really know what to do either. I think they need to somepoint just delete some healing abilties what feel uninteressant, unwhelming or clunky to use. Dissipation is probably one what can be simply stripped away and few people would regret it.

I also get Seraphine could just be a ability what reinforce the fairy for some time, but people want flashy ability, and seraphine at least is pretty. On the other hand, i always feel fey union as e "meh" abity. It feels so clunky to use, and the fact the entire fairy gauge which deplete itself when you die is only for this skill disapoint me. But it's a very flexible tool so maybe it's just me.

About why dissipation is still here, I also suspect they are not confident about deleting last ability gain from one extension.

The devs said 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH', implying they didn't have any new ideas. While the players here do have ideas, just different ones. The point is that, despite not agreeing on one solid direction, the fact is the players can suggest multiple different directions the devs could have gone in, but didn't. Consensus on one idea isn't the point. The existence of any idea at all is the point, because it shows the devs were not as 'out of room to move SCH' as they seemed to imply they were.

I hadn't considered it before, but it's possible there's some kind of 'bias' towards keeping capstone skills (mostly as they're usually the flashiest ones). I can't think of any that have been outright deleted, only moved around in the levelling process (eg MCH Ricochet was the 60 capstone at one point, now it's 50) or reworked in effect. Well, unless you count full reworks of things, eg the card system for AST leading to Sleeve Draw being killed. It'd also serve to explain why some, frankly, not great skills have survived the chopping block for so long too, such as Tornado Kick for Monk living all the way till now, where it's actually useful (as a pre-90 version of Phantom Rush), or Dragonfire Dive (please god give it a trait upgrade it's so lame) or Sidewinder (same as DFD, it's kinda lame to hit for 300p in this world where even tanks have 900-1200p hits). If there were such a bias at work, it's more likely that a skill that is a 'crapstone' would be kept around with a reworked effect, rather than deleted outright.

And Fey Union is probably kept around because without it, there's no reason for the Fey Gauge to exist. With the cost removed from Fey Blessing, Union remains the only spender. Personally I thought partway through SHB that Blessing should have been made an AOE equivalent of Union, pulsing an AOE HOT effect for each 10 gauge it consumes. But then that'd give SCH another regen-type effect and that'd run counter to the Pure/Barrier split I didn't know they were going to go for

[Sparkthor]

To me, dev got idea. Everyone got idea, but none of them was able to pass 1st discussion, or at least is solid enough to pass 1st play tests. I also think they got idea similar to our, if they consider to add more dps tools to healer, which is something we cannot be certain of (Yoshi-p wanna embrace pure heal concept back in time). On the other hand, I supposed EW was a test about shield healer and pure healer concepts. IMO, they can push the concept further, as to me, this 1st try is sucessful.

I agree with you on DFD, it's a poor ability now and could be remove/rework (I put a piece on being tied on cd with spine dive for being it's aoe counterpart). Sidewinder could get some love, but 300 potency isn't that bad as ranged potency are lower because they got a trait which increase their skill dommage by 20% (and 30% for mages). On ability cut, i cannot think about any healing ability from being removed. But it's something what will be needed at some point. It could also lead to more specification between shield and pure concepts.

[ty_taurus]

I know exactly what I'd do with SCH. I see several very clear directions you could take the job that would create such a stronger identity both visually and mechanically. There would be some reworking involved in any of these examples, which is fine but would require the resources to accomplish during a new expansion, but all of them involve accepting that the current healer direction is awful and needs to change.