EndWalker's Deep Dungeon

[Midareyukki]

@Midareyukki what other ancient civilization would you want to be explored? We keep on running into their tech and learning about them due to how well their stuff survived for over thousands of years. The three main nations of the Magi war have places you can still see and find remnants of. Any other great nation that doesn't exist anymore tend to not have much information about them that have survived since the era they existed in. Part of that is due to three old dudes who were bitter wrecking those places up. The other is due to how some of the ages played out. Like if how the rulers of an age didn't want the average person to know how to read and write or what little we know about the fourth Astral Era is from oral tradition. Who knows how accurate anything we know from that era is. Other places we could explore more about I feel they'll want to explore with variant dungeons if this first one is anything to go by.

Exactly. We keep running into them because that's what the authors wrote : o We otherwise could have so much more than just "the Allagans".
But we have Gelmorra which we only explored about twice, if I'm being generous? We have other areas in Bozja, we KNOW from the Field Records that there's more to that place than just Bozja Citadel, Gangos and Zadnor. We have a whole continent in Dalmasca, there's also Landis, Valnain and Léa Monde for some odd reason. We have places in Othard that could serve as inspiration. There could be more to Kugane. We just got to Garlemald and Thavnair, you can't tell me they're all nothing but barren wastelands (ok maybe you can for Garlemald, but Thavnair??). We also have all of Elpis which lends well to such a thing, if not Ultima Thule. Hell, the Moon itself, given how Zodiark's aether crib is still heavy in weirdness there. Using a bit of imagination, we can basically come up with about any area.

And yeah, the First, Second and Fourth eras didn't leave much, and the Fifth was an ice age. So there aren't written records. But I assume structures existed, stuff that could have gone down under, like a Deep Dungeon implies.

And idk, we shouldn't relegate everything new to variant dungeons >,>

Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not angry that it's Allagans. It's better than coming up with stuff out of your arse, NieR Raids.

BUT it is a bit overdone, and there isn't much else to add to it. Allagans have had a foothold on the whole story for a while now. Weapons? Allagans experimented with Omega. Save the Queen? Allagans. Heaven on High? Allagans. Gunbreaker? Anti-Allagan Unit. Hermes? Was a prominent Allagan who caused a Calamity with an oversized adult toy. The Moon? Allagans got to it. Carteneau? Littered with Allagan constructs. Ixal? Allagans.
And see, the thing is that I understand. Because it's not just that their stuff was durable. It's that they also did have a foothold in everything. You can't escape explaining Zadnor without mentioning the Allagans. But it really feels like nothing else about the game ever mattered until the War of the Magi, and that Allagans are the origin point for so much of our woes. For once I'd love for the problem to stem off of a proto civilization in Othard to have experimented with, idk, necromancy and it led to weird problems that got buried deep beneath Doma Castle. Kinda like how Type-0 had the Cursemire of Naraku.

I'm obviously otherwise gonna play through it, nothing wrong with that. But I'm not gonna deny that we need to give Allagans a rest at some point. What's next? They chose the island of Sharlayan specifically because it had Allagan constructs telling them how to build greek poleis?
I like the Allagans. But if I was presented with my favourite food for breakfast, lunch and supper, I'd get a little tired of it and it would lose its shine.

So no. I'm not crying like the girlie above with the world's worst snark has to say. I'm just sighing. But at the end of the day, even a "really?" is followed by "mkay, I'll bite".

[SannaR]

Snips

I have a lot of doubts on if we will touch on anything related to the Ivalice stuff unless they bring Mastsuno back or get an ok from him. I also don't think everything will be tied to the variant dungeons either. Just that I think things like Gelmora or it's Limsan equivalent would be touched on through that. I feel other places whatever they may be that won't be explored by the MSQ will be explored via other side content like how we got Hells Lid and Swallow's Compass as part of the Four Lords. Or we got introduced to Turncliff via the Weapons storyline. They could also take the route of a Tribal quest line. If you're talking about the crashed Allagan site on the moon. That's just a satellite that was ment to help keep track of Dalmud.

Again I'm not saying that trying to explore other civilizations wouldn't be cool or fun. Just don't expect much when many of those places especially those that aren't around anymore is going to be hard. As it would be like trying to find a motherload of information on Mycenean Greek culture. Due to again six very destructive calamities. I'm not sure how destructive an Ice Age is by itself when it comes to destroying towns ect. Vs it being destructive due to things becoming scarce and thus places becoming abandoned. Unlike raging Winds, Fire, Thunderstorms, and Floods and very angry Primals.

[Midareyukki]

snep

On the Ivalice thing, this is besides the point a little but I really want them to NOT invite Matsuno again. Matsuno's great on his own, FFXIV is great on its own. But it just feelt to me like they didn't mesh the two styles well enough. And stuff needs a bit more background and development behind it, one that if they can't get Matsuno to work on, they should get other people to do so.

And even so, all the things you said ARE valid stuff. POTD is Gelmorra, we have the Four Lords, we visited Terncliff... aaaand what? What else was done with that information? It felt rather self-contained, did it not? To me, so too did the one Allagan period they use. And again, I understand... but I won't deny that I kinda want other stuff than just that same thing.

And I'm not saying that exploring the Allagans are a bad thing in and of themselves, but I feel like while it's natural, it's still a constant thing they go for. With all the rest being either vacant or just one-note. When thre isn't much of a need. Also, an ice age can at the very least prevent you from building quite a few things due to a lack of resources. Not everyone can live in cold climates like the Lost, the Ishgardians and Garleans

[SannaR]

On the Ivalice thing, this is besides the point a little but I really want them to NOT invite Matsuno again. Matsuno's great on his own, FFXIV is great on its own. But it just feelt to me like they didn't mesh the two styles well enough. And stuff needs a bit more background and development behind it, one that if they can't get Matsuno to work on, they should get other people to do so.

And even so, all the things you said ARE valid stuff. POTD is Gelmorra, we have the Four Lords, we visited Terncliff... aaaand what? What else was done with that information? It felt rather self-contained, did it not? To me, so too did the one Allagan period they use. And again, I understand... but I won't deny that I kinda want other stuff than just that same thing.

And I'm not saying that exploring the Allagans are a bad thing in and of themselves, but I feel like while it's natural, it's still a constant thing they go for. With all the rest being either vacant or just one-note. When thre isn't much of a need. Also, an ice age can at the very least prevent you from building quite a few things due to a lack of resources. Not everyone can live in cold climates like the Lost, the Ishgardians and Garleans

I guess my question then to you at least is why would you want such little lore about those places be tied to a DD? As the other two were kinda bare bones.

[Midareyukki]

I guess my question then to you at least is why would you want such little lore about those places be tied to a DD? As the other two were kinda bare bones.

I never said that's what I wanted. What I said was that I didn't want the lore to be associated to it to be the same old already-beaten thing. What I wanted was for them to use DD as a way to expand on other cultures and lores elsewhere. Because we already have quite a lot exploring Allag.

Which, I reiterate, 9 out of 10 times, they only pick the moment where they invaded everything because ambition, and then they got shook. Rarely do they ever elaborate on anything past that.

[SannaR]

I never said that's what I wanted. What I said was that I didn't want the lore to be associated to it to be the same old already-beaten thing. What I wanted was for them to use DD as a way to expand on other cultures and lores elsewhere. Because we already have quite a lot exploring Allag.

Which, I reiterate, 9 out of 10 times, they only pick the moment where they invaded everything because ambition, and then they got shook. Rarely do they ever elaborate on anything past that.

Yes, but this is an ugh Allagans got into the next DD thread. Thus if we were keeping the lore tied to the next DD why would you want another nation's lore tied to something that so far hasn't been shown to have much meat on them? As iirc HoH was just hey you wanna try your hand at the thing we use for training and then later find out it was Allagan tech. And PotD was hey this Gelmoran area has a strange thing happening with it only to have the story revolve around an antagonist from a different game and some closure for poor Eda. Wouldn't you want stuff about Bozja or even a non Mach or Allag but still really old nation get more than a 10min CS that you get after beating the last storyline floor boss?

[Midareyukki]

Yes, but this is an ugh Allagans got into the next DD thread. Thus if we were keeping the lore tied to the next DD why would you want another nation's lore tied to something that so far hasn't been shown to have much meat on them? As iirc HoH was just hey you wanna try your hand at the thing we use for training and then later find out it was Allagan tech. And PotD was hey this Gelmoran area has a strange thing happening with it only to have the story revolve around an antagonist from a different game and some closure for poor Eda. Wouldn't you want stuff about Bozja or even a non Mach or Allag but still really old nation get more than a 10min CS that you get after beating the last storyline floor boss?

Because that's what happened the first time? All we know and knew of Gelmorra is that after the Elementals had a hissy fit, people hid in underground tunnels until they asked "pretty please" and the Elementals let them build Gridania. We don't really know much else from Gelmorra past that. It required Edda and Nybeth to give it some further plot.

Also, this doesn't invalidate the Allagan bit whatsoever? Yes, it's "ugh" because how often are we going to recycle the same thing now? Are we cows that ruminate on the same food over and over?

And of course I would like to have more than just a tiny cutscene worth of things for lore. I'm well aware that Deep Dungeons are small snippets unlike massive content that go deep (pun definitely not intended) into the lore.

Again: the issue isn't them adding lore to anything. It never was for a second. You're being stubborn on this, when I've already made it quite clear. My issue is that they're defaulting to the same lore over and over, when you have other places that could do with a bit more, EVEN IF it's something small. Because the issue isn't quantity nor quality. It's how repetitive it's being.

I refuse to repeat myself any further. Either you understand this much, or you're just going to have to deal with it.