Thoughts on restricting ress more?

[Conadrium]

I’ve been thinking and wanted to get some opinions. I feel ress is too omnipresent and to big of a crutch in most content, and it has negative consequences across the board.

1) In easy content, resses means you basically can’t fail with a few notable exceptions that can wipe the entire party at once. As long as a resser survives nobody has to actually do the mechanics properly. Tanks don’t really die in this content.

As an example I’ve gotten Eden Titan three times now in my raid roulette, and still don’t know how most of his mechanics work. No one says it explains a thing. People die left and right, ress after ress after ress, and you kill it. The only reason SE got away with putting that fight into what is essentially LFR, is because you can graveyard Zerg it.

2) In harder content, the prevalence of resses has necessitated the addition of the dreaded damage down. Square has crafted some beautiful fights that become frustratingly precise because hey! You can still kill the boss. The slightest bit of lag or being a pixel or two off gets you tagged with the failure make for 30 seconds. The only way to do well numbers wise is to exhibit absolute perfection. This also allows for sloppy play from healers because they can always ress you.

Your thoughts?

[Renalt]

Normally I'd say yes cause that's what made a lot of WoW bosses hard ( At least during my time of WotLK ) was once someone was down...they were down unless someone had a Battle Rez in which the cost to using those were generally heavy.

However since there are people who could be doing everything correctly on their end but get nailed cause their internet sucks...they made that portion easier. Well honestly everything is easy unless doing Savage content since this game is mostly a single player JRPG first with some MMO elements drizzled on top.

[Jeeqbit]

I can tell you that in Heavensward, the only people who could resurrect in my parties were the healers. If the healers died, it was over. This made something like Clemency more useful on Paladin, because if you could save the healer, you had a chance of saving the run. Of course, there were summoners, but I didn't see these too often.

But since Stormblood came out, we had red mages everywhere. It was an extremely easy job to play and therefore one of the most popular DPS even after the expansion was over. You would usually have at least 1 red mage or more in any matched duty and even in high-end content in party finder. Being able to resurrect endlessly made content a lot easier and was a bit of a nerf really.

But I don't really mind it and it's not the only reason why content became a little easier. They didn't want extremes to be as unforgiving after Sephirot. In savage, they started to give damage downs instead of vuln stacks for some mechanics, which makes it easier for a red mage to survive and rez.

I find it useful being able to do this. If I do old content synced and minimum item level in Party Finder, I know that people usually won't be that good with the mechanics because it's old, so I bring a red mage and just rez all the time and it does allow us to clear a lot more than we normally would.

[Raven2014]

I'm indifferent to you other points, but this one stuck out to me.

The only way to do well numbers wise is to exhibit absolute perfection.

uh ... as it should?

This sounds like you're not happy with the fact the party just push for the clear instead wiping and reset just because you tanking the floor? People are there to clear the fight, not play to carry you to good number.

I have seen people asking party to wipe or just refusing to take the res when they die because "MY PARSE!!". Most difficult fights already have other soft punishment. Like half the mechanic in P5S usually follow by the poison tower that requires everyone to be up or you still gonna wipe anyway. Res allows save. Also it's invaluable during prog, even when the party can no longer clear the fight due to many deaths, it allows party to keep moving to learn and see more.

[Conadrium]

Not at all, in fact I’m not talking about death there but damage down and weakness. Bosses are both too easy and too precise. It becomes a dance of stand on this spot. Ok stand on this spot. You got clipped? Be a gimp for 30 seconds but still easily kill it. Uhh mixed signals anyone?

In WOW BECAUSE deaths mean a wipe, the developers are limited in how tight they can make certain windows. How pixel perfect they can require you to be. When you can instantly be scraped off the floor, that limitation on design is gone.

Regardless save the hostility and the personal attacks, I’m here to gauge others opinions. If you oppose this line of thinking I highly suggest you stop trolling and start providing feedback because Criterion dungeons are fairly obviously a test run of this concept.

[Deveryn]

Not at all, in fact I’m not talking about death there but damage down and weakness. Bosses are both too easy and too precise. It becomes a dance of stand on this spot. Ok stand on this spot. You got clipped? Be a gimp for 30 seconds but still easily kill it. Uhh mixed signals anyone?

In WOW BECAUSE deaths mean a wipe, the developers are limited in how tight they can make certain windows. How pixel perfect they can require you to be. When you can instantly be scraped off the floor, that limitation on design is gone.

Regardless save the hostility and the personal attacks, I’m here to gauge others opinions. If you oppose this line of thinking I highly suggest you stop trolling and start providing feedback because Criterion dungeons are fairly obviously a test run of this concept.

Criterion's the test?

I invite you to check out Baldesion's Arsenal and Delubrum Reginae (Savage).

People are actually being fairly polite here, though you are coming in talking about removing res when you had a rough time in a normal raid, which isn't the most difficult content. If you want to gauge opinions, you're going to find some on more than just this idea with what you've presented.

[Conadrium]

Most are, the one I replied to was not.

[Raven2014]

Not at all, in fact I’m not talking about death there but damage down and weakness. Bosses are both too easy and too precise. It becomes a dance of stand on this spot. Ok stand on this spot. You got clipped? Be a gimp for 30 seconds but still easily kill it. Uhh mixed signals anyone?

That's only the case after the gear reach a point where it can over-compensate for player mistake. At the start when everyone still at minimum ilvl a few deaths still gonna make you hard-enrage. Heck, even now in P7S/P8S even with less than a handful of deaths gonna still make a sub 620 party hit hard enrage.

Yes the more gears you have the more forgiving the DPS gonna become, because you don't take a party full of T8 in WoW into Naxx and complain the first wing is too easy do you?

In WOW BECAUSE deaths mean a wipe, the developers are limited in how tight they can make certain windows. How pixel perfect they can require you to be. When you can instantly be scraped off the floor, that limitation on design is gone.

Uh no ... I don't know what WOW look like these days, but back when I played it (Release up to Cata) those statements simply not true. Warlock Soul Stone and Combat Res is a thing. Also the normal raid is designed with a significant buffer. A normal 25men raid only need 16-18 competent players to carry the rest. I remember my first kill of Heigan the Unclean (?may misremember him with another boss) back in the days were with just 4 players, 2 tanks and 2 healers because all the DPS got killed within the first minute of the fight. After a few resets with the same result, the leader decided just let those who know how to do the dance kill him, and we did it in a pull that lasted almost 30min.


Now Heroic Raid WoW is a different story where precision would be required and would be comparable to min-ilvl savage of FF14. The point is no all content are challenge and death = wipe in wow, in fact that's only applicable to the highest level content of WoW.

Regardless save the hostility and the personal attacks, I’m here to gauge others opinions. If you oppose this line of thinking I highly suggest you stop trolling and start providing feedback because Criterion dungeons are fairly obviously a test run of this concept.

I'll be blunt, your mention of "good number" rubbed me the wrong way, so I gave it a very blunt response. Because that reason sounds rather selfish to me, and like I said there have been players carry that selfishness into the actual runs. Last week one of the PF I was in had to leave and kick a player who refuse to take the res because - quote: "I have no interest in taking a res if I die within the 2 minutes of the fight".


No one trolling you, as far as I can see from all the comment, they generally disagree with you though, is that constitute as trolling?

As far as experimenting ... well, it's new content, so it goes without saying they are experimental something. But like another had said, you may think the way you think because you haven't really explored all the high and low of content yet.


- Ultimate fights: these are the hardest content in the game. And res for the most part is just a useful tool to let the group push as far as possible to learn the fight. In ultimate for the most part, even just one death would already be fatal unless it falls under a very lucky window.

- The relic savage dungeon: Baldesion's Arsenal and Delubrum Reginae. Especially the former, it was designed similar to WoW raid structure with multiple bosses in a wing with mob/corridors in between. Res both in and out side of combat is severely limited and expensive. I had many Aresnal run that got abandoned because the ressers ran out of "supply".

But these contents are designed and intended for the most diligent players, these contents even at their peak are something the majority of the players wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. If you want the kind of challenge you seek I highly recommend those.

[TheMightyMollusk]

If you're depending that heavily on battle raises, you're doing something very wrong.