Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Mithron]

Obviously there's been a lot of hot discussion about this topic, so I'd like to further add more discussion to it.

One thing I've realized recently is that I no longer look at jobs based on their current sub-roles: melee, physical ranged or caster. I now only look at jobs based on Selfish DPS, Moderate Support, or Heavy Support. This is all I think about when considering how much aDPS a job should do, given I believe all jobs should be within 1% of each other in total rDPS.

So looking at each job as to what they currently bring for raid damage buffs:

Selfish DPS: BLM > SAM > MCH
These are the guys who should be top 3 aDPS above all others. The only time I consider things such as job difficulty or mobility is when comparing it to these others in their "new" sub role. I don't compare MCH to other physical ranged, I compare MCH to other selfish DPS jobs. I think BLM is less mobile and higher skill cap than SAM, and SAM is higher than MCH given MCH's mobility, so I think this is how it should be.

Moderate Support: MNK > RPR > SMN > DRG > NIN
These are the guys that bring some raid damage, but not as heavy as others. Thus they're the middle of the pack. It just so happens most of these jobs are melee, though I would not be opposed to seeing DRG and NIN drop to heavy buffer if their raid buffs were equivalently improved, as I think that fits their job identity personally. I also think it would be neat if all of SMN's summons had support auras like Phoenix does and turn them more into a BRD-esque caster, but that's a whole other can of worms of a topic lol.

Heavy Support: RDM > BRD > DNC
These are the guys that don't do much aDPS but bring tons of raid damage buffs. Sadly, RDM's Embolden doesn't really do that enough currently so probably needs to be addressed. This brings me to my next major point.

I do not believe that defensive/healing/raising utility and mitigation on DPS jobs should affect their aDPS. This is important because rDPS should be within 1% of all jobs. I do not believe in Raise, Vercure, Tactician or Addle/Feint taxes. Leave these types of taxes to the tanks since tanks have no raid damage buffs (and I don't believe ever should).

So now we come across to how this could affect party composition. I believe the standard SE wants most parties to be is 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee, 1 physical ranged and 1 caster. While that sounds great on paper, we run into problems like MCH were they may have decent aDPS but their rDPS is so terrible compared to all other jobs that they are just not valued for their ranged slot compared to any other job, much less BRDs or DNCs. This was only further compiled against them with P8s' fight design heavily favoring melee uptime and having such a strict DPS check.

How would party compositions change if we looked strictly at raid damage buffs instead of the classic "melee/physical ranged/caster" that seem to define each job's damage?

[FireMage]

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

[Mithron]

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

The only time difficulty should matter is when in the same role of raid damage buff jobs. MCH isn't in the same role as RDM or SMN, it's in the same role as Selfish DPS like BLM and SAM, therefore must do BLM and SAM damage, regardless of "difficulty."

[Renathras]

OP, pretty much agree with that overall. I honestly feel like each of the main sub-roles (Melee, Ranged, and Caster) should have at least one of each (e.g. if BRD or DNC was mid-support). I'm not sure the solution, but it does seem a better way to think about it.

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

SAM isn't much harder than MCH and has 100% uptime in fight design now. This perspective is invalid. Hell, RDM is harder than SAM right now.

Not to mention difficulty is 100% based on the person. I sometimes fight GNB easier than WAR since it's easy to NOT lose my place in the rotation and I don't have an upkeep buff that I tend to forget about (on WAR) that falls off. I find upkeep buffs and DoTs the hardest (or, more accurately, most annoying) kinds of gameplay since they're easy for me to forget about. (GNB's issue is like Ex4 fights where, right when you have your 30 sec Gnashing Fang ready to go, the boss forces tons of movement and disengagement, etc). So what people find "more difficult" highly depends on the person.

Not only that, but optimizing MCH actually ISN'T that easy, especially on high latency connections, where it may in fact be impossible. It's just the gap between low and high skill on the Job isn't super high because the Job's mechanics, not that getting the high end is easy, per se.

I'm also confused how rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other "is not true balance" as that...would kind of be a pretty good definition for what true balance IS, honestly. If you're going to go with "well, some have utility" - fine, then give every Job non-damage utility that's different but equal. There, we have balance and with 1% damage so no Job is blackballed by a community that cares about damage >>>>> all anyway.

EDIT:

I've sat through enough dissertations on the healer subforum explaining why WHM "properly" deserves to have the stupidest, least interactive gameplay (it's the intro healer!), and therefore deserves to have the weakest output (more effort properly means more damage!), while also having a non-advantage (but it's the HEALIEST healer! Never you mind that it isn't true and isn't an advantage either in a game where Squeenix wants all healing outputs to be adequate).

No. Begone with this. I've heard "this job I don't play only naturally deserves to be worse than mine in every way because because because wah wah blah blah yak yak yak" enough times to roll my eyes off a cliff.

This may be the only time I ever get to say this, Semirhage, so listen up:

I agree with you.

Only other solution I could think of would be to canonize the support role, make it yellow or something, and condenn assign whatever jobs SE has stopped considering DPS to it.

I feel like it would be Purple. not quite sure why, though. Yellow could work, too. I forget what DoH/DoL are (I think they technically have a color other than gray, but can't remember what, maybe one is Yellow and one Purple already...), so maybe Orange? Gonna have to go to ye olde color wheel here. XD

Honestly, they could make it a fourth slot but when quing content (dungeons/24 mans) it just ques like a DPS does. That way they wouldn't have to redesign the entire game and in 4 mans and 8/24 man casual content, it legitimately doesn't matter anyway.

But I do agree they should stop dancing around the issue and just make Support a role already. We already arguably have a Support from each of the categories as it is (DNC/BRD, SMN/RDM, probably NIN and maybe MNK - and if we want to get super frisky, PLD and AST, but they should stay Tank/Healer), so it's not like they couldn't populate this role fairly quickly.

Bonus, more people would have gearsets that straddle roles for them to pick up an alt if they want to do something different.

So Orange would probably be the color. It's Red when it needs to be.

[Housinginneed]

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

You idiots who thinks MMOs should have same balance as other competitive games like League needs to gtfo.
20 years of MMO and I've never seen people argue FOR "balance based on difficulty", only here in ffxiv, only recently, perhaps due to how every single popular online game has bronze-master tier ranking system.
Who the fuck are you even competing against?

I have heard multiple, good arguments as to why "balance based on difficulty bad", including how it would have a negative impact on the game and it's community.
I have not heard of a single good argument for this "balance based on difficulty good" side, other than like 3 people crying "but how else can i show off how elite i am?"

[SaberMaxwell]

You idiots who thinks MMOs should have same balance as other competitive games like League needs to gtfo.
20 years of MMO and I've never seen people argue FOR "balance based on difficulty", only here in ffxiv, only recently, perhaps due to how every single popular online game has bronze-master tier ranking system.
Who the fuck are you even competing against?

I have heard multiple, good arguments as to why "balance based on difficulty bad", including how it would have a negative impact on the game and it's community.
I have not heard of a single good argument for this "balance based on difficulty good" side, other than like 3 people crying "but how else can i show off how elite i am?"

If only these arguments only began recently. I've been seeing and participating in this discussion since Stormblood.

[Housinginneed]

I have not heard of a single good argument for this "balance based on difficulty good" side, other than like 3 people crying "but how else can i show off how elite i am?"

You haven't as none exist. RDM competes with the other DPS, MNK competes with the other DPS, EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS. Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

Like i said, this is the only argument you have.

[Nutshell]

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

Your opinion is not fact, that's actually gross of you to try to state that

[NightHour]

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

What?

Red Mage is easier than MCH.

[MagiusNecros]

What?

Red Mage is easier than MCH.

They are both Braindead. RDM seems easier because Red Mage moves like a Snail. While MCH moves like a hyperventilating Mosquito.