I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Nadda]

What does more interesting look like exactly? What does more depth look like? What's the comparison we're going for? (is it in this game? is it in another game?) Because I don't know what healing class in another MMO doesn't generally have a basic dps kit most of the big buttons of which are on cool down and one primary single target/aoe spell and a dot. I also don't know of other jobs in FF14 to be all that exciting.

I think ForsakenRoe made a decent effort in their examples but I think it was a bit too much.

I'm still confused by what the benefit is that you'd be pressing multiple buttons for the same level of output.

Because you got to think about how it will interact with the rest of the whole game - We're not gonna suddenly have a higher threshold for DPS numbers our contribution will remain the same (we would have to for how this game is balanced) you would have just separated the task into multiple parts. So what?

That's not a good game design that's a placebo effect to make a certain group of players feels better. I don't believe there would be a change in the ceiling or floor or anything really.

That said if Healing is boring for you then it's probably not the right job for you - in this game at least... maybe there's some other MMO that does it better but I wouldn't know, They probably have a better GCD. It sounds reductive to say it that way but it's the truth. *does he mean that the game shouldn't improve?* not even close.. just I don't think giving you extra buttons to press to feel more engaged is proper game design.

[Nizzi]

That said if Healing is boring for you then it's probably not the right job for you - in this game at least... maybe there's some other MMO that does it better but I wouldn't know, They probably have a better GCD. It sounds reductive to say it that way but it's the truth. *does he mean that the game shouldn't improve?* not even close.. just I don't think giving you extra buttons to press to feel more engaged is proper game design.

It is entirely reductive to say that when healers had more DPS buttons in the past. Telling others it's not the right job for them is ridiculous, especially when we had various types of playstyles in the past. Perhaps making every single healer play exactly the same for 80% of their casts in nearly any given encounter isn't proper game design? But I don't know, it's not like we have any examples of healers with more DPS buttons working in this game or anything.

[flowerfairy]

I'm still confused by what the benefit is that you'd be pressing multiple buttons for the same level of output.

Because you got to think about how it will interact with the rest of the whole game - We're not gonna suddenly have a higher threshold for DPS numbers our contribution will remain the same (we would have to for how this game is balanced) you would have just separated the task into multiple parts. So what?

Who cares about the number that Glare outputs? Glare is still boring. I don't care if a newer rotation does less damage or more damage than what we output currently, what I care about is if it's either enjoyable to me or if it's going to put me on snooze for 70% of the fight when nobody's taking damage.

That's not a good game design that's a placebo effect to make a certain group of players feels better. I don't believe there would be a change in the ceiling or floor or anything really.

This I don't really get, how is it a placebo effect? Having a harder damage rotation on top of having to heal the party is definitely an increase in skill ceiling.

As with game design... FFXIV's combat is entirely focused on doing damage, you can't deny that. One major issue with healers is that they all feel the same with minor differences. Some of this is unavoidable since they want all healers to be able to clear 4-man content, so they homogenized the healing kits. But the damage kits don't need to be homogenized at all. It's probably the only thing that can be unique to every job in this state of the game. It doesn't need to be anything complicated. One job can have multiple DoTs, another can have a basic builder/spender rotation similar to BLM, another can have procs and oGCDs, etc. You'd probably need max 4 buttons for these. Just anything more than Glare Dia will satisfy me.

[Nadda]

It is entirely reductive to say that when healers had more DPS buttons in the past.

Well, I've been playing since Heavensward so please forgive me if I don't know about changes for Whitemages before that point but I've been a Whitemage main throughout.

But my Stone became Glare. My Aero became Dia. My Holy became Holier... I still have Assize from Storm Blood.
The only real DPS button I lost was Aero 3 (which is surely missed) but I also have Afflatus Misery now.

So I've had the same number of DPS buttons for the last 4 expansions.

Perhaps you're referring to Scholar or Astrologian?
Again I was open to examples of other MMOs to which to be referred. I want to know what exactly you're looking for.

This I don't really get, how is it a placebo effect? Having a harder damage rotation on top of having to heal the party is definitely an increase in skill ceiling.

Well to demonstrate you actually gave me a good example so allow me to illuminate.

Who cares about the number that Glare outputs? Glare is still boring. I don't care if a newer rotation does less damage or more damage than what we output currently..

You wouldn't care if you did more or less damage than we do currently just using our current toolset. As long as it is enjoyable for you.
The first definition of Placebo that I could find is.

"A substance that has positive effects as a result of a patient's perception that it is beneficial rather than as a result of a causative ingredient."

To you in this case the substance would be giving you more buttons the positive effect would be your perception of enjoyment. Regardless as you yourself put it if you did less or more equal damage as you do use glare.

That would be a placebo effect.

And the reason I say this wouldn't raise the ceiling or change the floor or any architecture wear in. That players are very adaptable to change and if the damage output remained the same - which for balance reasons it would, Healers won't suddenly be doing more DPS than we are now - that the act of pressing buttons would be an illusion of complexity and enjoyment without really changing a thing. It's the same thing broken into multiple buttons.
The reason this wouldn't work for say DPS I assume you might ask after is that the DPS identity comes from their diverse multitude of damaging spells to express themselves with and the decisions they make in using them are core to their role. As a White mage, my diverse multitude of healing spells to express myself with and the decisions I make in using them are core to my role.

That's not to say we couldn't use more DPS buttons but even if it was expanded to say two more buttons they'd have to play an important function past the redundancy of feeling good to press more buttons their utility would play a factor.

[Maltothoris]

They were referring to SCH from Heavensward and Stormblood. In HE, sch had broil, bio, bio 2, miasma, aero, energy drain, and shadow flare. In StB, they had broil 2, bio 2, miasma, miasma 2, energy drain and shadow flare. Heading into ShB, they only had Broil 3, Bioanalysis, and art of war before they had to add back energy drain.

Also Whm did have more dps spells than that with Aero 1(though sadly it was more useful on other classes) and fluid aura.

But basically we just want something or rather anything to break the monotony of the filler and the dot that is prevalent for all four classes when the downtime in each fight happens.

[Nadda]

They were referring to SCH from Heavensward and Stormblood. In HE, sch had broil, bio, bio 2, miasma, aero, energy drain, and shadow flare. In StB, they had broil 2, bio 2, miasma, miasma 2, energy drain and shadow flare. Heading into ShB, they only had Broil 3, Bioanalysis, and art of war before they had to add back energy drain.

Also Whm did have more dps spells than that with Aero 1(though sadly it was more useful on other classes) and fluid aura.

But basically we just want something or rather anything to break the monotony of the filler and the dot that is prevalent for all four classes when the downtime in each fight happens.

I figured that was partially the case. For Scholars.
OH Yeah we could use two aeros back then... Also Fluid Aura ... I thought I was the only one to use that ability. I don't believe it did any damage though just a knock or if it did only did a little bit. (never seemed to work on anything when it mattered) I never really used it for damage often.

And I understand wanting to break up the monotony but we got to do better than just want it for wanting its sake.
There was an individual who wrote here named ForesakenRoe who gave some pretty incredible suggestions but I think tying too many heal effects to dps abilities would make playing healer even more boring for people because you'd be dishing out so much healing with your damage that it devalues your decisions/agency you have while healing.

I was looking back into WoW for maybe some inspiration but that doesn't translate over well with how FF14 GCD works. Like if it was more dots would that be sufficient? Just to keep tabs on something?

[Maltothoris]

I figured that was partially the case. For Scholars.
OH Yeah we could use two aeros back then... Also Fluid Aura ... I thought I was the only one to use that ability. I don't believe it did any damage though just a knock or if it did only did a little bit. (never seemed to work on anything when it mattered) I never really used it for damage often.

Prior to Stormblood, Fluid used to do 150 potency. Also the issue with aero 1 back then was that over its total duration it did 200 potency and stone 3 did 210 so it was a minor dps loss to use it while sch broil was either 170 or 180 was it was a gain to use and malefic 2 or 3 was 200 so it was even.

[IDontPetLalas]

snip
You wouldn't care if you did more or less damage than we do currently just using our current toolset. As long as it is enjoyable for you. snip

And the reason I say this wouldn't raise the ceiling or change the floor or any architecture wear in. That players are very adaptable to change and if the damage output remained the same - which for balance reasons it would, Healers won't suddenly be doing more DPS than we are now - that the act of pressing buttons would be an illusion of complexity and enjoyment without really changing a thing. It's the same thing broken into multiple buttons. The reason this wouldn't work for say DPS I assume you might ask after is that the DPS identity comes from their diverse multitude of damaging spells to express themselves with and the decisions they make in using them are core to their role. As a White mage, my diverse multitude of healing spells to express myself with and the decisions I make in using them are core to my role.
That's not to say we couldn't use more DPS buttons but even if it was expanded to say two more buttons they'd have to play an important function past the redundancy of feeling good to press more buttons their utility would play a factor.

There have been multiple posts, in multiple threads, that can provide games in which healers had diverse skillsets that include damage abilities, utility as well as healing abilities, since you don't seem to have done the research ( I assume) i will list 2 - SWTOR and Aion, in both of these DPS skills were by no means an afterthought, they were integral to the healer identity and in fact a healer in the DPS skill set was competitive with DPS. That does not mean that it is the solution for this game, it does mean that I personally do not want extra buttons introduced mindlessly, that way leads to the button bloat in the current AST and some of the current useless ( or questionable) skills in the healer skillset we have today, one of the classic examples being repose. I do not in fact object to healers doing more DPS and that could be perfectly appropriate - for example in the MSQ, or in other solo activities- it could even be appropriate to have that option in group activities. In group content it's not an "illusion of complexity and enjoyment", it's more of a skill ceiling, in that in order to increase DPS there are mechanics, efficiency of healing and other factors to consider in order to get that increased DPS output.

By the way, regarding "just add more dots", I'm curious as why you would want to apply the same approach to every healer? There are 4 healers, why should they all be the same? Personally, I had that on SCH, I could see it coming back to Ssch, but please, let's not continue to just slapping the same skill on all four and call it a day.

[ty_taurus]

I don't understand why we still need to debate whether healers deserve to have fun, consistent gameplay that ensures they can participate in FFXIV's combat system in all forms of content regardless of player or party skill level.

This is a video game. Yes? Video games are meant to be fun. Yes? Fun fact: being fun is kinda the entire point of a video game. That can mean different things, but if a game is failing to be fun, everything else fails as well.

Healers fail to be fun in 95% of circumstances. It doesn't matter if they work, if they're balanced, or if they make the game easier, they fail all of those checkboxes because they couldn't succeed the first and more pivotal responsibility of a video game: being fun.

Design healers to be fun first, then take into consideration balance and accessibility while defending and sustaining the qualities that make them fun ALWAYS. Not just when progging savage. Not just when playing with people who can't step out of a giant glowing circle to save their life. ALWAYS.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Just anything more than Glare Dia will satisfy me.

Just slightly off topic, but this sentence right here, is a big reason I'm disappointed we don't get another instanced area ala Eureka/Bozja. I've never been happier anywhere else because the Logos/Lost Actions gives me something else to press other than my hotkey breaking nukes as the green role. Be it utility (Paralyze III for uber pulls in undersized group), DPS (Seraph Strike & Magic Burst), added timer (again, Seraph Strike & Paralyze III), or suddenly ever so slightly more engaging MP management (Font of Magic, Chainspell, Seraph, Magic Burst).