I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Raikai]

How about playing a more advanced job?

I know this might be a good answer, but it kinda sucks at the same time... Like, I play Dancer mostly because I love the job fantasy a lot, and I don't get that same feeling playing Ninja, whenever I want something more complex.

So it kinda sucks when your favorite job doesn't give what you want or need.

[Sebazy]

FFXIV have a hidden difficulity curve through the various jobs..
If you find a role easy and boring play..
it can be because you're playing one of the easier one ( jobs ment for entry to new players)
How about playing a more advanced job?

Does that really ring true with healers anymore though?

If we compare vs WHM:

SCH's increased difficulty comes down to needing more proactive vs reactive, you need some fight knowledge to shine. However even that isn't really what it used to be. ARR SCH used to have objectively weaker and slower healing throughput than WHM. If you played reactively you could genuinely struggle. Now that's just not the case as the holes in the kit have all been plugged. A well played SCH isn't easier, they are just more efficient with GCD usage (More broils basically). Challenge doesn't really come into it.

AST is much the same, they used to have weaker raw healing throughput and less of an emphasis on personal DPS but with highly variable and erratic cards to make up for it. Now the variance is mostly gone, replaced with fluff variables that barely matter. The challenge now boils down to: Can you do your 2 minute burst rotation whilst also handling the mechanic that's probably happening in the middle of it. That's a fine challenge for Savage, not so much for Extremes and certainly not in anything below where CD alignment is probably a disorganised mess anyway.

[Zeastria]

I know this might be a good answer, but it kinda sucks at the same time... Like, I play Dancer mostly because I love the job fantasy a lot, and I don't get that same feeling playing Ninja, whenever I want something more complex.

So it kinda sucks when your favorite job doesn't give what you want or need.

That i can agree on, but thats how it is..
[Instead of going for the low entry - highskillfloor design, this game choose to split them among the jobs]

The thing with MMOS is that they need to create jobs/classes simple.
- simple enough for the average player to play at a acceptable level..
Since big playerbase = more money.

However you can effect your experience by outside factors too..
like don't play with premades(friends),play with randoms / new players ect..
Do harder content.. (make the game harder on yourself)

Does that really ring true with healers anymore though?

If we compare vs WHM:

SCH's increased difficulty comes down to needing more proactive vs reactive, you need some fight knowledge to shine. However even that isn't really what it used to be. ARR SCH used to have objectively weaker and slower healing throughput than WHM. If you played reactively you could genuinely struggle. Now that's just not the case as the holes in the kit have all been plugged. A well played SCH isn't easier, they are just more efficient with GCD usage (More broils basically). Challenge doesn't really come into it.

AST is much the same, they used to have weaker raw healing throughput and less of an emphasis on personal DPS but with highly variable and erratic cards to make up for it. Now the variance is mostly gone, replaced with fluff variables that barely matter. The challenge now boils down to: Can you do your 2 minute burst rotation whilst also handling the mechanic that's probably happening in the middle of it. That's a fine challenge for Savage, not so much for Extremes and certainly not in anything below where CD alignment is probably a disorganised mess anyway.

I started as WHM and changed to AST 4 months in, there was a clear difficulty curve there (more steep learning curve)..
AST has more going on than WHM, which is why i think it's more engaging, for me it was.. i felt WHM was kinda repetitive in comparison.

(But everything becomes easy with experience and time regardless of difficulty..)

[Raikai]

However you can effect your experience by outside factors too..
like don't play with premades(friends),play with randoms / new players ect..
Do harder content.. (make the game harder on yourself)

Ah, that much I do already. I'm a Savage Party Finder raider... But this logic works mostly for healers rather than dpsers, because failure from randoms usually end up on their shoulders, forced to spend gcds to heal their mistakes. And that's exactly the same reason why I really can't get into healers a lot.

It's wild because when I played with a static, my job as a healer was utterly boring and easy. But playing with PF, it goes right to the other end of the spectrum and becomes extremely frustrating, because it feels like you're not pulling your weight and the moment you call something out people just leave. There's no middle ground when it comes to healer gameplay difficulty/complexity.

As a DPSer, other people's mistakes might be frustrating, it doesn't really affect much of how you play your job. You'll just have to go through the fight a lot more because more wipes are to be expected with a PF prog team.

I know there's Ultimates, but that is one fight more that really doesn't interest me, nor I'd be able to commit to a static to tackle it.

[WaxSw]

FFXIV have a hidden difficulity curve through the various jobs

It doesn't and in an mmo with weekly locked gear it shoudn't ever be that. I'm not saying there aren't easier and harder jobs but a difficulty curve is something that you're supposed to go through and there are no jobs in this game meant just for entry level that you're supposed to ditch later on... with an exception.

it can be because you're playing one of the easier one ( jobs ment for entry to new players)

And that exception is CLASSES. The jobs meant for entry level are classes, which is why they stop getting new skills, they lack core mechanics of the jobs they evolve to and change once you reach level 30 and equip the job stone. Outside of clases there shoudn't be a case of people being forced to leave a level 90 job because its skill ceiling is almost at the same level as its floor, that is plain bad design.

How about playing a more advanced job?

Beacuse there are no such a thing in the case of the healer roles. In the case of healers all are braindead and extremely similar, besides, once again, this game has weekly capped loot and gear so being forced to change to other job just because there is no skill ceiling is bad design

like don't play with premades(friends),play with randoms / new players ect..

yikes, stop playing with friends in an MMO just to enjoy a job, if that doesn't scream that something is terribly wrong idk what else to say.

Do harder content.. (make the game harder on yourself)

You mean the hard content like ultimates which has been cleared (all the fights) with 1-0 healers? and that's ignoring how those hard fights are less than 20% of the content of the game, having an unenjoyable design in the remaining 80% of the game is, repeat with me, bad design.


Edit: Just an extended thought I had with the whole entry level jobs and how absurd it is. Jobs change over time and in the case of healers and other like smn they go from having a non entry level job difficulty to an entry level job that goes nowhere because that advanced playstyle is no longer present in the game, What are those players supposed to do? Stop playing the game? Start over and ditch all their experience?

[Sebazy]

AST has more going on than WHM, which is why i think it's more engaging, for me it was.. i felt WHM was kinda repetitive in comparison.

Does it really though?

A big part of the problem with AST is that the buffs individually are all super weak now. The way you get actual benefit out of them is to dogpile everything into the 2 minute burst window. That leaves you with 1 or 2 free cards between those windows. That's less activity than even Lilies. If you're spreading your cards out on cooldown, sorry but you're doing it wrong. Playing sub par to get a 'better' experience isn't really a road that's acceptable to go down in my book.

[AmiableApkallu]

FFXIV have a hidden difficulity curve through the various jobs..
If you find a role easy and boring play..
it can be because you're playing one of the easier one ( jobs ment for entry to new players)
How about playing a more advanced job?

My two cents: Every player should be able to choose any class/job they want based on "identity"/"aesthetic" and find fulfillment in this game.

That means every job should be easy enough to pick up at a basic level -- enough to get through the MSQ and other normal-mode content -- and provide enough "depth" such that someone who wants to eek out every last ounce of performance (damage) has have a fun time doing so.

[Renathras]

The use case of the majority of WHM's skills are practically nonexistent because every skill is tripping over themselves with how often they overlap.

I think the main problem is that this depends heavily on who you're talking to and the content. A lot of general Healer players use GCD heals. A lot of GCD heals. The all oGCD healing of Savage-Ultimate raiders isn't prevalent through the game.

So you have cases like Cure 2, Solace, Tetra. Tetra's use case is if someone needs immediate healing and the GCD is still rolling so you can't cast anything yet. Solace is for when you can use a GCD heal and have a Lily, or need to move. Cure 2 is if you don't have Lilies, or are awash in MP and don't need to move, or need multiple large heals (several people with vuln stacks and a big hitting mechanic coming up, or a Tank that pulled too much or has collected an impressive vuln stack collection), which was even more useful in ShB with old Thin Air.

They're very close to overlapping, but distinct.

Then there are ones that look similar but aren't: Divine Veil and Benison aren't at all alike in effect. And they can be stacked. Lilybell's healing is much more bursty than Asylum's is. Medica has a range advantage Cure 3 doesn't; Cure 3 heals for a fair bit more AND is usable on a remote stack (e.g. if the WHM has to be disengaged from the party while the rest of the party has a stack mechanic).

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Now, you can argue the encounters don't really need this much (not never - they sometimes do), but that's not the same as saying the abilities aren't different or don't have different use-cases.

I DO AGREE that they should probably be MORE different, but they actually do have different use cases. Suppose a fight is about to have a lot of movement AND healing requirements. You have 2 Lilies and Tetra is off CD, and you need to heal a single party member. What's the optimal action? It may NOT be to use Solace or Tetra on the member over Cure 2. Several party members instead of one, same situation? Again, the optimal action may be to save Rapture for the movement and use a Medica 2 or (if the party can stack and needs more immediate healing before the mechanic) Cure 3.

The abilities that overlap are:

Cure 2, Solace, Tetra
Medica, Rapture (Assize, but it's used on CD rather than held for healing and is only a substitute if it comes off CD at the time you'd need this or close enough that you can hold it without losing a loss over the encounter)

Cure 3 has a range use and has a higher heal amount (and shorter radius) than Medica/Rapture, and so doesn't compete directly with them.

Technically Medica 2 is closer competition with Asylum than Rapture, and Asylum's long-ish CD means there are times where Medica 2 is the only option for that healing amount.

Lilybell isn't in competition with Medica 2 or Asylum, per se, since it's use case is several rapid but slightly spaced semi-large hits, as it heals for a lot per pulse and can also be manually detonated. Moreover, it can be placed remotely from the WHM's location. In P1S, I'd place it in the center of the boss for Four-fold and it's radius could easily reach all party members, even if I as the WHM had to move to one of the outer four intercardinal positions where my own AOE heals like Rapture wouldn't reach the whole party. This is something no other spell in WHM's kit can actually do - Cure 3 can be used remotely but has a shortish radius, and at the time, Asylum's radius was also smaller, but in any case, it's healing pulses were for less than the pulses from Lilybell.

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Again, there's an argument to make things more distinct or that the game should have encounters designed to emphasize those different use cases more often, but not that they don't have separate use cases.

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I know this might be a good answer, but it kinda sucks at the same time...

Your point is a fair one, but kind of works for everything. Like I love NIN, but just can't play it much with my ping (which also gives RDM some issues with Dualcast proc, though NIN's burst is just murder - soon, fiber, my lovely, sooooon...). Sucks, but I kind of just have to accept that. I also like MCH and GNB, but again, similar issues. (I don't care much for AST, but if I did, same issue again for the burst). And honestly, I really love the Rogue archetype, but obviously, ROG isn't a viable Job.

Always sucks when there's a Job/class you love the aesthetic of, but can't actually play it for various reasons.

But, at the end of the day, it's healthier for the game for there to be disparate ones so people can kind of gravitate to the one they like; or if aesthetics are more important, find a way to manage it somehow.

Does that really ring true with healers anymore though?

It kinda does.

WHM's kit is FAR more straightforward than SCH's is. Let's have a scenario:

Party is at ~50% health, one member at around 20% with a vuln stack, incoming large raidwide (let's say Ex5 going into that "ultimate" he casts when he first summons the dragon and you just raised a party member who got aced by Gales 1 - ask me how I know this scenario...): On WHM, you have 1 Lily, Plenary, Asylum, Benediction, 1 charge of Benison, Aquaveil, and Temperance up. On SCH, Soil is on CD, you have 2 Aetherflow charges and everything else is off CD and available. What do you do? You have about 4.5 seconds, or 1 and 1/2 GCDs to act.

WHM: Has several options, but they're all straightforward. Use Temperance or not. Use a Rapture on the party, weave Benediction on the heavily wounded person and probably slap Benison or Aquaveil on them, pop Temperance. (OMG, you triple weaved, but whatever). Point is, other than Temperance and the shields, everything is just "medium heal", "big heal", "full heal". You have options, but all of them are going to be direct and do the Job. Maybe you use Medica 2 (landing just after the first hit) or maybe you use Asylum after that leading into the big attack to heal up after, or to counter the ice bleed, but again, it's not like there's anything complex going on there.

SCH: Now you have a lot of different options, and a lot of them are good. You also have several things you can weave together. For example, you might use Recitation + Indom. You might use Expedience or Fey Illumination. You might use Lustrate or Excogitation on the wounded recently Resed party member. You might go for a Recitation + Adlo (on the wounded person) + Deploy. You might pull out Seraph. You might use Whispering Dawn in there for the bleed if you didn't opt for Seraph. You might weave a Fe Blessing in there - or not - depending on which other option you used. You could always use an Emergency Tactics + Succor (not that any one would, but it is an option). You might throw caution to the wind and quad-weave for an ultimate Adlo spread shield - Fey Illumination, Recitation, Protraction on the target, maybe throw in a Dissipation if you feel frisky, Adlo, possibly with a Swiftcast, Deploy and then go get a drink refill as no one will be close to death for at least another 15 seconds. And keep in mind, there are other mechanics in the fight that you need to be planning for and possibly preserving CDs for, so you might not want to be too careless with this choise.

But what you CAN'T do is just cast two Succors, while WHM COULD probably cast two Cure 3s if the party is stacked and get away with it. WHM can solve almost any problem with enough Medica.

In any case, I suppose it depends on how one defines challenge, but if one defines it at least partially by "having to choose intelligently between various options" (which arguably is part of it), then SCH is at a buffet while WHM is deciding between which 2 of 4 sides they want with their standard dinner. WHM's toolbox consists of two screwdrivers and a dozen hammers of various sizes, while SCH's has only one hammer, but quite a few other types of tools.

My two cents: Every player should be able to choose any class/job they want based on "identity"/"aesthetic" and find fulfillment in this game.

That means every job should be easy enough to pick up at a basic level -- enough to get through the MSQ and other normal-mode content -- and provide enough "depth" such that someone who wants to eek out every last ounce of performance (damage) has have a fun time doing so.

The problem is the game is based around damage and almost nothing else. This means that you can't give some people more damage, otherwise it makes other people nonviable, unless the damage is trivial. For example: SCH. The damage difference between optimal theoretical play (all AF used on ED, all slidecast Broil IVs + natural Bio refreshes, no Ruin 2s, Chain and Aetherflow obviously used on CD, Dissipation used on CD and all the AF funneled into more Energy Drain) and "middling" play (85-95% Bio uptime, Ruin 2 used as a movement tool occasionally, few AFs used on ED, Dissipation seldom or possibly not at all used) - in both cases, assume ABC/GCD uptime is 100% rolling GCD - is RELATIVELY minor. It gives some people a feel for skill expression, but a lot don't find it particularly fun, and the difference is pretty minimal.

AST has the DRK/NIN issue of a super busy burst but then not so busy downtime, and its output is more dependent on the party (due to buffs) than not.

Optimal WHM play is basically GCD uptime, using Lilies for movement, landing Misery in buff windows, full Dia uptime, and using PoM and Assize on CD.

Optimal SGE play is using 2 Plegma charges in burst, using Toxicon (if absolutely necessary and Plegma/Eu Dosis refresh not up) for movement, 100% Eu Dosis uptime, and 100% GCD rolling uptime.

But in all these cases, the distinction between optimal and middling play in rotation isn't super big (SCH is probably the biggest due to Ruin 2, Energy Drain, and Dissipation), and the damage difference isn't particularly huge. The lion's share of AST's optimal play is getting the burst right.

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I dunno, there's just not a lot of good ways to make it where you can have a lot of "eek"ing out for people that really want it that's ALSO fun and that doesn't break encounter design with a wide damage gap between the middling players and the top end ones.

And it should be noted that most MMOs haven't really succeeded at this, and the ones that have tend to only succeed with some classes and not with others (some end up just being high skill floor AND ceiling and others low floor and ceiling or highish floor but low ceiling). Not many manage to get every class to work the way you describe.

There just aren't a lot of cases of MMOs with every class being equal across each other, having low skill floors and high ceilings, where players of different skills are still viable (or where the top end isn't pushing phases and trivializing content), and where the community accepts this on the whole.

[ForsakenRoe]

WHM's kit is FAR more straightforward than SCH's is. Let's have a scenario:

Party is at ~50% health, one member at around 20% with a vuln stack, incoming large raidwide (let's say Ex5 going into that "ultimate" he casts when he first summons the dragon and you just raised a party member who got aced by Gales 1 - ask me how I know this scenario...): On WHM, you have 1 Lily, Plenary, Asylum, Benediction, 1 charge of Benison, Aquaveil, and Temperance up. On SCH, Soil is on CD, you have 2 Aetherflow charges and everything else is off CD and available. What do you do? You have about 4.5 seconds, or 1 and 1/2 GCDs to act.

In any case, I suppose it depends on how one defines challenge, but if one defines it at least partially by "having to choose intelligently between various options" (which arguably is part of it), then SCH is at a buffet while WHM is deciding between which 2 of 4 sides they want with their standard dinner. WHM's toolbox consists of two screwdrivers and a dozen hammers of various sizes, while SCH's has only one hammer, but quite a few other types of tools.

As WHM, I'd PI, Rapture, doubleweave Temperance and Bene on the stack guy. You say 'one and a half GCDs' so you're not getting a second cure 3 in there. As SCH, I'd probably go for Adlo (on stackman), Deploy, Ruin2 (instacast so we can squeeze it in), doubleweave Recitation into Indom. Alternatively, Ruin2, Excog (on stackman), Expedient, Ruin2, Recit, Indom (this would land after the first hit of the attack, but the party would still be alive) The initial hit of the attack and the final hit are the damaging ones, the inbetween only hits for like 5k per tick, which gives more time than you'd think to put up mit and such. And if the idea in the hypothetical is that the guy ressed 'the moment the first hit is about to go out', then the solution instantly changes to 'ignore his low HP he's got res invuln'

As for the last allegory, it's kinda accurate. WHM has several sizes of hammer, SCH only has one hammer, but several other tools. The problem is, the raids don't ask for a hammer. They say 'tighten this bolt' or 'rivet these things together'. And just as you can't really tighten a bolt with a hammer (well, you kinda could but likely damage the thing), WHM just cannot deal with mitigation checks, it's got Temp and not much else to offer

[Sebazy]

It kinda does.

WHM's kit is FAR more straightforward than SCH's is. Let's have a scenario:

Doesn't this scenario play right into the fight knowledge I mentioned though?

If you're caught out in a situation where your group is at 50% and needs to be topped 2 GCDs before another raid wide lands, then the fight knowledge hurdle has clearly been failed at that point.

WHM is definitely more straight forward, I'm not disagreeing with that. But rather the complexity of SCH's kit is merely reading the tooltips and knowing how far in advance you want to get it going. You don't need to setup or prep much outside of Spreadlo