I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ForsakenRoe]

Ooooh. When I read it, I thought Royal Road worked like Redraw (rerolling your card to get a random card with its own RR effect) but it actually consumed the card to put its RR effect onto the next card you play. It’s way cooler than I thought… That does sound like a pain to balance.

Yeh, I don't know how big the difference in RDPS would be between an AST that got Ewer, Balance, Ewer, Balance, over and over for the whole raid (maximum raidbuff windows), vs one that got bad draws like, idk, 3/8 possible raidbuff windows because they couldn't find the Ewer/Spires they needed. But if we kept the cards as Single Target only, it removes that second layer of RNG, of 'OK I got the good card Spread, now I need this second card to burn to power my first card', which should make it easier to balance. This would hopefully strike a balance (heh) between people who want the cards to feel like they actually do different things, and the people who want the cards to be balanced in output so they can't get screwed by bad RNG for logs. Personally, I'd be willing to sacrifice Royal Road interactions if it meant the base cards had different effects again, I think.

If we went with eg Balance is 10% all damage, Ewer is 10% Magic damage, and Spire is 10% Physical damage, well those are all theoretically identical effects when played on the 'correct role'. Balance is a wildcard and works on anyone, Spire to physicals, Ewer to magicals. But there'd be some slight differences to consider even with this. For example, if you were able to see the future and know your 2min window would be Spire, Ewer, Balance, in that order, and your comp is MNK NIN DNC BLM, who do you use each card on? Some people might say Ewer BLM, Spire NIN, Balance MNK. But if you Balance the NIN instead, part of their 2min window is the ninjutsu, which is magic damage. So they benefit more from the all-round effect of Balance compared to the 100% physical MNK. With the idea of Arrow giving autoattack speed, it could potentially be better to give to the PLD during prog specifically, as while it'd be less damage output, it'd also mean they generate much more gauge to use on Sheltron. Shame SE removed the 'autoattack gives gauge' from other classes like NIN, it could have been interesting to have specific jobs be Arrow Priority targets in that regard.

[ty_taurus]

Trying to come up with 6 different effects that are different yet also equal in value is realistically impossible. What’s annoying about separating buffs based on damage type is that they’re not always applicable. Physical cards are dead to AST while they solo, and we regularly encounter 4-man roulettes, and even sometimes 8-man roulettes that give you an all melee or all ranged DPS comp. While the concept of physical vs magical I think sounds cool, it’s really awkward in practice because we only have 3 magical DPS jobs in contrast to the 9 physical ones.

One thing you could do…

Make Lord of Crowns into an AoE buff that makes all damage physical, and Lady makes all damage magical, like those Bozja lost actions, and have whichever draw based on the last card you played, which creates a sort of fun theme of cheating fate by bending the rules based on your RNG results, but it’s also just another way to bend over backwards to make the cards work when just having 1 button that just applies a flat damage buff makes so much more sense than 6 different shades of the same thing and bloating a kit full of tools to try and justify a clunky system.

I’m not saying I want that outcome, but trying to make all cards equal DPS buffs is just going to result in the same flaws, I believe. The system needs a more critical overview to feel like it’s worth having

[Mithron]

Ooooh. When I read it, I thought Royal Road worked like Redraw (rerolling your card to get a random card with its own RR effect) but it actually consumed the card to put its RR effect onto the next card you play. It’s way cooler than I thought… That does sound like a pain to balance.

Yep, the way it worked was Royal Road gave your next card played an additional effect. So each card you used Royal Road on gave this buff:

Balance/Bole: Next card played had 150% increased effect
Arrow/Spear: Next card played lasted 200% longer
Ewer/Spire: Next card played was AoE for 50% less effect

The fun of AST was taking what you got and trying to make the most of it. Jobs in HW and SB were much more unique, so MNKs and BRDs benefitted from crit a lot more than other jobs. They changed Spear to give extra crit, so if you were pulling strong single target Spears, you'd priortize those on MNKs and BRDs. Arrows were best used on BLMs. Sure you'd have terrible draws and only keep pulling Spires or Ewers or Boles, none of which directly increased DPS, but that was fun. High highs, low lows. Then you'd pull of that AoE Balance and everyone loved you.

[ty_taurus]

Here's a different take on AST than options I mentioned before...

What if the cards themselves no longer provide buffs, and you no longer are targeting other players with them. Drawing and playing a card simply sets that arcana onto your gauge, which acts as a currency for specific actions:

Celestial Opposition requires that you've played The Bole or The Balance. Stops/Stuns all enemies and grants a 10% mitigation to the party if The Bole was played, or ensures the next healing spell received on each party member will restore critical HP if The Balance is played.

Celestial Intersection requires that you've played The Arrow or The Spear. Applies a 6% direct damage buff to a target party member if The Arrow is played, or a 12% critical hit buff to a target party member if The Spear is played.

Celestial Fate requires that you've played The Ewer or The Spire, uses Astrodyne's animation. Restores 15% of your own MP if The Ewer was played, and reduces your casting time by 1.5 seconds if The Spire was played.

The star sign system persists, but once you draw a solar sign, for example, you can't draw another solar sign card until you've gained all 3 signs and activated Divination.

Instead of having Redraw, you instead have Reverse. Reverse flips your current card to the opposite card of the same star sign.

Since the card effect doesn't trigger until you actually use the action, you aren't screwed if you get a card at the wrong time. You simply wait for the right time to use it. Maybe you can also not use that respective action until after the deck resets once Divination is active, yet you can't draw the effects currently in play, allowing you to potentially use each action with both effects, but you'll only get to use them half as often.

[ForsakenRoe]

Trying to come up with 6 different effects that are different yet also equal in value is realistically impossible. What’s annoying about separating buffs based on damage type is that they’re not always applicable. Physical cards are dead to AST while they solo, and we regularly encounter 4-man roulettes, and even sometimes 8-man roulettes that give you an all melee or all ranged DPS comp. While the concept of physical vs magical I think sounds cool, it’s really awkward in practice because we only have 3 magical DPS jobs in contrast to the 9 physical ones.

Then have them affect the 'wrong role' at half effectiveness, like we have now. Problem solved, you'd want to put the magic card on the magic using class, but if you have a team of 4 physical dps because DF gave you that, then you can throw it on them and itll have 'some' effect, just not as much. And it won't matter that it affects them less, because in any content where it DOES matter eg stuff with enrages, you're gonna be making a team that has at least one caster for the 5%

[Azuri]

Then have them affect the 'wrong role' at half effectiveness, like we have now. Problem solved, you'd want to put the magic card on the magic using class, but if you have a team of 4 physical dps because DF gave you that, then you can throw it on them and itll have 'some' effect, just not as much. And it won't matter that it affects them less, because in any content where it DOES matter eg stuff with enrages, you're gonna be making a team that has at least one caster for the 5%

That's not how XIV works. Damage typing is a convoluted mess with no rhyme and reason and the only logical solution Square has been using is to remove damage type specific buffs. MNKs rejoiced when Brotherhood was changed in 5.4. So did RDMs with 6.0 Embolden.

This. Just. Does. Not. Work.

On top of that, the inherent difference between melee and casters in damage means that the magic card is always the trash one. Do you want to pull a buff for SAM or RDM? The answer is too obvious. And then you pull three magic cards in your SAM/DRG/DNC/SMN comp and slap them on the SMN and two healers. And this death wall seems that much more appealing. This is no better than Balance.

[ty_taurus]

That's not how XIV works. Damage typing is a convoluted mess with no rhyme and reason and the only logical solution Square has been using is to remove damage type specific buffs. MNKs rejoiced when Brotherhood was changed in 5.4. So did RDMs with 6.0 Embolden.

This. Just. Does. Not. Work.

On top of that, the inherent difference between melee and casters in damage means that the magic card is always the trash one. Do you want to pull a buff for SAM or RDM? The answer is too obvious. And then you pull three magic cards in your SAM/DRG/DNC/SMN comp and slap them on the SMN and two healers. And this death wall seems that much more appealing. This is no better than Balance.

I agree. I think there are ways you could play around with physical vs magical damage type scenarios, but the fact that DPS roles are split into melee vs ranged where magic is only half of ranged makes it too difficult to actually build anything consistent out of, and that's what the community wants more than anything else: consistency. And regardless, the 6 card system does not support that concept.

If we could take the cards down from 6 to 3, and instead of drawing them randomly, you just manually selected those cards, we could do something more effective in that regard. Something like:


Lord of Crowns - Increases damage dealt by 6% and grants a solar sign.
Lady of Crowns - Increases critical hit by 8% and grants a lunar sign.
Knave of Crowns - Decreases damage taken by 10% and grants a celestial sign.
EDIT: Adjusted the example to avoid the issue of not having melee or ranged in your party.

All three cards share a cooldown. Then Divination is used once all 3 signs are acquired, you'd have something that would function quite uniquely.

Yes, the Lord in this scenario is definitively superior, but the fact that you MUST use Lady and Knave in order to grant a 6% damage increase on the entire party means their lesser value is ultimately a net gain, and it makes you try and find the best moment to use Knave. This system, though, throws the other 6 cards out of the window, which few AST players would be happy with even if the result felt better to play.

Realistically, we need to figure out a solution for the 6 card system, which is a pain in the ass to find something that feels both balanced and engaging while also not feeling bloated or convoluted. It's a big order, and the direction Shadowbringers takes just feels empty and annoying. It's not the right path.

[ForsakenRoe]

On top of that, the inherent difference between melee and casters in damage means that the magic card is always the trash one. Do you want to pull a buff for SAM or RDM? The answer is too obvious. And then you pull three magic cards in your SAM/DRG/DNC/SMN comp and slap them on the SMN and two healers. And this death wall seems that much more appealing. This is no better than Balance.

'We shouldnt have this design, because SE doesn't know how to make casters do similar damage to melee' is pretty bad reasoning to naysay a design. Even if it is true that SE can't balance recently. Aside from that, if it's really such a big deal we can just continue having the split be based on ranged/melee instead of physical/magical, I figure Phys/Mag is better flavor. If I was in a party where me drawing 3 Magic damage cards in a row is such an issue, first of all there wouldn't be a RDM because BLM is more damage, secondly I'd leave because I apparently stumbled into a logrun party and I don't consider myself to be good enough to participate, nor do I give enough of a damn about logs to, thirdly you have apparently forgotten that Redraw can't give you the same card as the one you just threw out, and it now also can't give you the card that has the same Seal. So in practice, if you drew Ewer, played on RDM, drew Ewer, you Redraw and you would not be able to get Ewer or Arrow from it. Even if the Seal System was deleted for this suggested change, it'd still mean you don't get an Ewer from the Redraw. The only way you'd see this '3 magic cards' is if you purposely don't redraw, and even then it's a 1/6^3 chance, or 1/216.

[NobleWinter]

The RNG of Draw in the Astro card system in every expansion has always felt a little silly to me. We have things like Redraw being changed to guarantee a different seal to try and fix the problem but Draw should have always been better. A real Tarot reader draws cards about a subject like a person or future event etc. Every card they draw has an interpretation that applies to the question being asked. An Astro likewise is trying to guide their party to victory so drawing cards the party doesn't need makes no sense. Triple melee cards back to back in a dungeon where the tank is the only melee is absurd. Is the Astro just bad at divining fate or is the party not meant to clear the dungeon? Back when Royal Road existed it should have never been possible to Draw four Spires in a row when no one needed TP and yet I remember doing it. Finding Six unique card effects that all felt great would be wonderful but modifying the RNG to adjust for party composition is what I really want. As for Card effects I think we really need more diversity for them to be fun. The reliability of all Balance is nice and I understand not wanting to stray from it but maybe secondary effects that could be turned on with a skill called "Interpretation" could be implemented. This way instead of the default Damage Up you could get Increased Defense again, or MP Regen, or a movement speed buff, etc. Every card still does damage up but can be "Interpreted" as well for a secondary effects that prove useful for niche situations. You might never interpret in a coordinated party but in the larger portion of duties without an enrage the Interpretations could be really fun. If this was the case we could scrap the seals altogether because I never really liked them anyway. Just let every card be a fixed 5% damage increase for anyone in the party and allow the player to choose the secondary Lore appropriate effect if they want. Let Divination be on a timer and be done with it.

[IDontPetLalas]

The RNG of Draw in the Astro card system in every expansion has always felt a little silly to me. We have things like Redraw being changed to guarantee a different seal to try and fix the problem but Draw should have always been better. A real Tarot reader draws cards about a subject like a person or future event etc. Every card they draw has an interpretation that applies to the question being asked. An Astro likewise is trying to guide their party to victory so drawing cards the party doesn't need makes no sense. Triple melee cards back to back in a dungeon where the tank is the only melee is absurd. Is the Astro just bad at divining fate or is the party not meant to clear the dungeon? Back when Royal Road existed it should have never been possible to Draw four Spires in a row when no one needed TP and yet I remember doing it. Finding Six unique card effects that all felt great would be wonderful but modifying the RNG to adjust for party composition is what I really want. As for Card effects I think we really need more diversity for them to be fun. The reliability of all Balance is nice and I understand not wanting to stray from it but maybe secondary effects that could be turned on with a skill called "Interpretation" could be implemented. This way instead of the default Damage Up you could get Increased Defense again, or MP Regen, or a movement speed buff, etc. Every card still does damage up but can be "Interpreted" as well for a secondary effects that prove useful for niche situations. You might never interpret in a coordinated party but in the larger portion of duties without an enrage the Interpretations could be really fun. If this was the case we could scrap the seals altogether because I never really liked them anyway. Just let every card be a fixed 5% damage increase for anyone in the party and allow the player to choose the secondary Lore appropriate effect if they want. Let Divination be on a timer and be done with it.

This sounds much more workable than some of the previous ideas. It sounds like it would provide for both utility in all situations, remove a system that isn't really optimal (seals) plus allow for someone to use their judgement through the best "interpret", which keeps things interesting.