I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ForsakenRoe]

We've all been round in circles about 123 combos, and most people agree, we don't want them as a healer. It just doesn't fit the role for various reasons, but it's not the only way to add more interactivity to the DPS rotation we have as a healer. More DOTs, GCDs with seperate recasts (like Sonic Break on GNB is once per min), procs off of other stuff we already have, etc. And we can add things to the buttons to make them more interesting. What about if Broil gives 2 Fairy Gauge, and Fey Blessing scaled in potency with more gauge? What if Dia ticks made the Lily Gauge tick one second faster? We can't just say 'well we cant do it because 123 sucks' and use that to write off every alternative.

It also falls apart when you ask 'ok so why do tanks have 123 combos', I'm not advocating for the tanks to get dragged down to where us healers are, but surely they don't actually 'need' a 123, it's just 'extra work for little output' right? Well, no, because there's more reason to have a 123 as tank. PLD and WAR have a branching choice of 'which 3' to use. DRK has it's lifesteal and gauge build attached to the 3rd hit, having it replaced by 111 would flood it in resources (or be retuned to feel really bad with how little each hit grants), and GNB gains a cartridge from it's 3rd hit. How would we make GNB get 'one third' of a cartridge to keep it's gain the same, 33% chance? That would feel terrible, not being able to guarantee having the cartridge to start the Gnashing combo because RNG didn't like you.

'Complex DPS rotation' does not mean 'good', but I'm not asking for 'complex', I'm asking for 'cohesive, fun, interactive'. One DOT that lasts 30s and a second button to spam until that DOT falls off does not a rotation make. As an aside, I'm playing 'the other game' and monks there do have a 123 of sorts. Difference is, there's all these different nuances to it that make that 123 play really well. 1 makes 2 strike multiple times. 2 has a chance per strike to reset 3's 10sec CD instantly. 3 applies one of their HOTs for 6sec instead of its usual 20s, but this HOT always jumps to someone who needs it, so its super unlikely to overheal. A CD that summons a bird friend, who will heal someone nearby whenever you press 2, 3 or 'Holy equivalent AOE spell'. When bird-friend does a heal, he gives a stack, and at 3 tacks, you can instantcast a second, 'usually 2sec casttime', HOT that also increases healing received by that target by 30%. An optional talent that makes 3 also extend your HOTs by 4sec duration, an effect so strong that it had to be capped to 'you can only get to double the HOT's original duration' because people got so fast at one point, they could keep the HOT up 100% of the time and just coat the whole raid in HOTs that never fell off. Should I go on, with examples of this 'actually an interesting 123 combo as a healer'?

[Nadda]

Should I go on, with examples of this 'actually an interesting 123 combo as a healer'?

Those are very interesting but in a way what would be the point? We already have hots or help to pick up the slack with healing so we can dps more. I mean heck one of those sounds like my Lilybell or Asylum. I know my Scholar friends have a little heal fairy that helps with healing.

If our DPS output remains the same level or rate (which it would most likely) You're breaking the buttons up to have all these extremely useful tertiary functions that we already have buttons for but our DPS would ultimately be the same.

I see your point that would be interesting but it almost is an artificial satisfaction. I mean for example if every button I had was like assize that be satisfying to press but would sort of dumb down healing making every button the correct button. Part of being a Healer is making the decisions with the full kit at your disposal unlike how other jobs function where rotations give you an optional benefit from using them... Speaking as a Whitemage - I have full access to all my buttons and I dictate how they are used the most effectively.

One of your options here and I hope you don't mind a bit of critique (I do think these are interesting) but one of them you have.

" but this HOT always jumps to someone who needs it"

That takes a lot of agency away from what makes a good healer a good healer. I know when it's best to give a dps who dropped below half a regen instead of a heal because it's a quick instant action and I can then go back to dpsing the boss. I know when to spread heals out best for my team and maximize their use because that is the freedom Healing allows me.

There is an interesting way to play healer but it actually comes from the decisions we make by playing our role. It has nothing to do with our DPS. As much as dps buttons would be appreciated and maybe if they did have rotational benefits like you suggested they would be cool but ultimately no I just think the design of healers is the way it is for a reason.

[Nadda]

What does more interesting look like exactly? What does more depth look like? What's the comparison we're going for? (is it in this game? is it in another game?) Because I don't know what healing class in another MMO doesn't generally have a basic dps kit most of the big buttons of which are on cool down and one primary single target/aoe spell and a dot. I also don't know of other jobs in FF14 to be all that exciting.

I think ForsakenRoe made a decent effort in their examples but I think it was a bit too much.

I'm still confused by what the benefit is that you'd be pressing multiple buttons for the same level of output.

Because you got to think about how it will interact with the rest of the whole game - We're not gonna suddenly have a higher threshold for DPS numbers our contribution will remain the same (we would have to for how this game is balanced) you would have just separated the task into multiple parts. So what?

That's not a good game design that's a placebo effect to make a certain group of players feels better. I don't believe there would be a change in the ceiling or floor or anything really.

That said if Healing is boring for you then it's probably not the right job for you - in this game at least... maybe there's some other MMO that does it better but I wouldn't know, They probably have a better GCD. It sounds reductive to say it that way but it's the truth. *does he mean that the game shouldn't improve?* not even close.. just I don't think giving you extra buttons to press to feel more engaged is proper game design.

[Nizzi]

That said if Healing is boring for you then it's probably not the right job for you - in this game at least... maybe there's some other MMO that does it better but I wouldn't know, They probably have a better GCD. It sounds reductive to say it that way but it's the truth. *does he mean that the game shouldn't improve?* not even close.. just I don't think giving you extra buttons to press to feel more engaged is proper game design.

It is entirely reductive to say that when healers had more DPS buttons in the past. Telling others it's not the right job for them is ridiculous, especially when we had various types of playstyles in the past. Perhaps making every single healer play exactly the same for 80% of their casts in nearly any given encounter isn't proper game design? But I don't know, it's not like we have any examples of healers with more DPS buttons working in this game or anything.

[Nadda]

It is entirely reductive to say that when healers had more DPS buttons in the past.

Well, I've been playing since Heavensward so please forgive me if I don't know about changes for Whitemages before that point but I've been a Whitemage main throughout.

But my Stone became Glare. My Aero became Dia. My Holy became Holier... I still have Assize from Storm Blood.
The only real DPS button I lost was Aero 3 (which is surely missed) but I also have Afflatus Misery now.

So I've had the same number of DPS buttons for the last 4 expansions.

Perhaps you're referring to Scholar or Astrologian?
Again I was open to examples of other MMOs to which to be referred. I want to know what exactly you're looking for.

This I don't really get, how is it a placebo effect? Having a harder damage rotation on top of having to heal the party is definitely an increase in skill ceiling.

Well to demonstrate you actually gave me a good example so allow me to illuminate.

Who cares about the number that Glare outputs? Glare is still boring. I don't care if a newer rotation does less damage or more damage than what we output currently..

You wouldn't care if you did more or less damage than we do currently just using our current toolset. As long as it is enjoyable for you.
The first definition of Placebo that I could find is.

"A substance that has positive effects as a result of a patient's perception that it is beneficial rather than as a result of a causative ingredient."

To you in this case the substance would be giving you more buttons the positive effect would be your perception of enjoyment. Regardless as you yourself put it if you did less or more equal damage as you do use glare.

That would be a placebo effect.

And the reason I say this wouldn't raise the ceiling or change the floor or any architecture wear in. That players are very adaptable to change and if the damage output remained the same - which for balance reasons it would, Healers won't suddenly be doing more DPS than we are now - that the act of pressing buttons would be an illusion of complexity and enjoyment without really changing a thing. It's the same thing broken into multiple buttons.
The reason this wouldn't work for say DPS I assume you might ask after is that the DPS identity comes from their diverse multitude of damaging spells to express themselves with and the decisions they make in using them are core to their role. As a White mage, my diverse multitude of healing spells to express myself with and the decisions I make in using them are core to my role.

That's not to say we couldn't use more DPS buttons but even if it was expanded to say two more buttons they'd have to play an important function past the redundancy of feeling good to press more buttons their utility would play a factor.

[IDontPetLalas]

snip
You wouldn't care if you did more or less damage than we do currently just using our current toolset. As long as it is enjoyable for you. snip

And the reason I say this wouldn't raise the ceiling or change the floor or any architecture wear in. That players are very adaptable to change and if the damage output remained the same - which for balance reasons it would, Healers won't suddenly be doing more DPS than we are now - that the act of pressing buttons would be an illusion of complexity and enjoyment without really changing a thing. It's the same thing broken into multiple buttons. The reason this wouldn't work for say DPS I assume you might ask after is that the DPS identity comes from their diverse multitude of damaging spells to express themselves with and the decisions they make in using them are core to their role. As a White mage, my diverse multitude of healing spells to express myself with and the decisions I make in using them are core to my role.
That's not to say we couldn't use more DPS buttons but even if it was expanded to say two more buttons they'd have to play an important function past the redundancy of feeling good to press more buttons their utility would play a factor.

There have been multiple posts, in multiple threads, that can provide games in which healers had diverse skillsets that include damage abilities, utility as well as healing abilities, since you don't seem to have done the research ( I assume) i will list 2 - SWTOR and Aion, in both of these DPS skills were by no means an afterthought, they were integral to the healer identity and in fact a healer in the DPS skill set was competitive with DPS. That does not mean that it is the solution for this game, it does mean that I personally do not want extra buttons introduced mindlessly, that way leads to the button bloat in the current AST and some of the current useless ( or questionable) skills in the healer skillset we have today, one of the classic examples being repose. I do not in fact object to healers doing more DPS and that could be perfectly appropriate - for example in the MSQ, or in other solo activities- it could even be appropriate to have that option in group activities. In group content it's not an "illusion of complexity and enjoyment", it's more of a skill ceiling, in that in order to increase DPS there are mechanics, efficiency of healing and other factors to consider in order to get that increased DPS output.

By the way, regarding "just add more dots", I'm curious as why you would want to apply the same approach to every healer? There are 4 healers, why should they all be the same? Personally, I had that on SCH, I could see it coming back to Ssch, but please, let's not continue to just slapping the same skill on all four and call it a day.

[Nadda]

There have been multiple posts, in multiple threads, that can provide games in which healers had diverse skillsets that include damage abilities, utility as well as healing abilities, since you don't seem to have done the research ( I assume)

lol no obviously not I don't frequent these forums often for my own sanity. lol I digress but at the very least I appreciate you enlightening me on a couple of examples. I am aware of those two games but I've only played SWTOR as a Sage.

Which is ironic because Sage has multi dots for damage. To answer your question why take the same approach for every healer I wasn't I was more or less fishing for what people actually want... This is more so why I left it open-ended - Also because I like dots it gives people something to manage I figured players would appreciate something to manage. In most cases now that we have a bit more clear baseline I'll include WoW as well. Generally, a healer DPS involves the following. A couple of dots, big ogcd/long cool-down abilities, and filler. (some have some stack management for some bonus effect)

That being said - You can't exactly have 4 completely* unique healing classes without them overlapping each other and running a game it's not very practical. My issue would be ultimately the same as your concern which is button bloat and extra buttons introduced mindlessly. You only have a few options you can go to before you get similarities since we're all casters. Going back to of Swtor briefly though I know that combat medic and sawbones scoundrel are more unique they all sort of play differently and aren't all casting types in the conventional sense. Then there's also GCD and encounter design to consider. Even in SWTOR I found it to feel just a bit too clunky for my taste so I see the utility of changing a 3 button filler rotation to just 1 button if it's not gonna change much and my primary focus is on healing. :/ specially if the time between spells is so long it would feel the same to me.

It's not that I am against these things but the implementation I just don't see how it could work. I also don't really agree with things being boring to be quite honest. If people are bored or not engaged with the game that surprises me.

[Calysto]

Just copy/paste :
-blm kit on whm with cure/glare instead of ice/fire
-rdm gauge on sge with shield/dps instead of light/dark
-smn summon rotation on sch (with fairies with regen/shield/dpsbuff/mitig specs)
-ast is already busy, so possibly rdm dualcast could help them

Healers jobs that feels differents -even if they basicaly keep the same healing tools- and possibly rewarding gameplay.
A few dps spells to add but not that much bloat compared to the caster dps jobs, just have a few [o]gcd heals stay instead of some dps tools.
Have the ressources go to skills like assize/pneuma so even burst phase doesn't make people feels like they're in too much danger.

[Nizzi]

Well, I've been playing since Heavensward so please forgive me if I don't know about changes for Whitemages before that point but I've been a Whitemage main throughout.

But my Stone became Glare. My Aero became Dia. My Holy became Holier... I still have Assize from Storm Blood.
The only real DPS button I lost was Aero 3 (which is surely missed) but I also have Afflatus Misery now.

So I've had the same number of DPS buttons for the last 4 expansions.

Perhaps you're referring to Scholar or Astrologian?
Again I was open to examples of other MMOs to which to be referred. I want to know what exactly you're looking for.

I was referring to Scholar, yes, and HW or SB SCH is the perfect example of what I'm looking for. I don't want to play WoW or SWTOR, I want to play FFXIV with the job I want to play (Scholar) not WHM with a fairy, which is what SCH's DPS downtime has been boiled down to.
To say that you've had the same number of DPS buttons for the last 4 expansions is true, but you also need to consider what those DPS buttons were doing in past expansions.
In Heavensward, Aero II was 12s. In Stormblood, it was 18s. Now Aero through Dia are 30s, like every other healer DoT in the game. You are hitting Aero/Dia less than you were in past expansions every encounter by a significant amount, meaning that the way WHM plays has changed and has gotten more Glare-spammy because of this. Now you may say "well we're doing the same damage but its easier for new players so whats the harm" and then to that token why bother having anything to do? A good job enables players of all skill levels to be entertained and have something to work towards. The current paradigm doesn't have this at all. Your "reward" for playing better isn't a more satisfying gameplay loop, it's hitting Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis more. Riveting stuff.

But let's set White Mage aside for a second - I understand that there are more White Mage mains than any other healer job who are currently okay with healer downtime kits. I think that this, more than anything, is the biggest problem with the entire healing role and an outright failure and embarrassment towards FFXIV. There is no diversity in a role that used to have diversity within it. In fact, the homogenization is so bad that the first healer job this game has gotten in 6 years was a functionally worse SCH clone that has the exact same gameplay loop as the other 3 healers. It's ridiculous.
I don't believe that WHM is a well designed job and I'm very much in the camp that believes all four healers need to be given a higher skill ceiling with meaningful gameplay and optimization choices. However, I understand that Square Enix doesn't see it this way, especially when it comes to White Mage, for whatever reason. Why is there not diversity though? Why do we all need to be the exact "spam 1 button for most of your casts, apply 30s DoT and maybe have an oGCD to press on CD" like they are now? They didn't used to be this way. If I get tired of playing SCH for a bit and I want a different experience... I don't get that on any job in the healer role. 80% of my downtime is spamming that same button on all healers in between weaving a bunch of lazy, bloated oGCDs that don't do anything interesting other than "heals real good x3" and that's BORING.

Think of the options you had in Stormblood; if you got bored with WHM, you could go play SCH, which juggled more DoTs while juggling a 45s Aetherflow timer and managing their pet. Now SCH manages nothing more than WHM does because Lilies are on the same 20/60s cap cycle that Aetherflow is, and the petGCD was gutted so Eos is literally just a totem oGCD. If you didn't want to play SCH, you could play AST which offered cards to make you think about how to best effectively use them to help your team. Now AST's cards are all flat damage buffs, and there's no decision making because you're holding them for the 2m burst windows. It does not offer a meaningful gameplay difference from SCH, WHM or SGE.

This is what is so frustrating continuing to talk about this point. We don't need to show examples from other MMOs. We're not asking for something this game has never had or isn't designed to handle. We're asking for the way that this game used to be, at the very least. Why is healer the role people openly desire rejecting diversity in? Forget changing all 4 healers to be unique and different, we do not even have one healer that is unique and different on a meaningful level to where people can say "Oh you don't like Glare spam? Go play that."
The current state is Square's fault for creating a problem that didn't need to exist in the first place. I don't think Scholars would be complaining right now if their DPS kit was the same as it was in Stormblood, but they're sure as hell complaining that it's the same that it was in Shadowbringers.

[fulminating]

In fact, the homogenization is so bad that the first healer job this game has gotten in 6 years was a functionally worse SCH clone that has the exact same gameplay loop as the other 3 healers. It's ridiculous.

Hey you take that back, warrior's nothing like scholar!

Joking aside, warrior seems to fit how they described sage better than sage does while having a significantly more interesting rotation. If they swapped a couple of tank cds for different nascent spread options and slapped a cleanse and raise onto it, it could be a really good foundation for a semi-unique healer.