I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ForsakenRoe]

It's not hard to find common ground when the topic of said ground is 'WHM has been consistently bent over the table and screwed by SE design for several years, and here's one example (where is my 60s mit) where it's direct competition wipes the floor with it designwise'

[ty_taurus]

Personally, I feel like “increasing max HP” is the primary answer to mitigation needs that should be White Mage’s wheelhouse. It’s not reducing incoming damage, but it increases how much damage the party can take while also being refillable for its duration, letting tools like regen/medica II or liturgy offer more value for certain mechanics. It’s basically a refillable barrier.

What would be interesting is seeing each healer approach mitigation needs differently as their primary response to big damage.

WHM: increases max HP
SCH: flat mitigation
AST: stagger damage taken
SGE: staggered barriers

That doesn’t need to be their only mitigation strategy, but could be their main 30 second cooldown or something similar.

[Katish]

Personally, I feel like “increasing max HP” is the primary answer to mitigation needs that should be White Mage’s wheelhouse. It’s not reducing incoming damage, but it increases how much damage the party can take while also being refillable for its duration, letting tools like regen/medica II or liturgy offer more value for certain mechanics. It’s basically a refillable barrier.

What would be interesting is seeing each healer approach mitigation needs differently as their primary response to big damage.

WHM: increases max HP
SCH: flat mitigation
AST: stagger damage taken
SGE: staggered barriers

That doesn’t need to be their only mitigation strategy, but could be their main 30 second cooldown or something similar.

I would add on that I would rather one option being what vengeance does on warrior (reflect x damage on top of mitigation) but as an aoe mit to help differentiate the healers, with the idea that the others get something that starts making them unique as well. But I am with you with different answers to the same problem.

I would argue that vengeance AoE would be suited for SCH given it has some tact with warrior lore wise.

[Renathras]

Dear god, Hell has frozen over because we actually agree on something.

If you read back a bit, you'd see I've been saying this for months, possibly over a year.

I feel like the current design requires at least some mitigation, and WHM is the one Healer Job I consistently find I'm reaching for a mitigation button and there's not one. I first noticed this with 6.0 with Ra-La's fight, where on SCH and SGE and even AST, I could reliably pop a mitigation of some kind timed to each of the raidwides he did, which were about 30 seconds or so apart (if they fight only goes 1:30-1:59, AST can still manage using Collective, Neutral, Collective). But with WHM, after Temperance for the first one, you've got nothing unless the fight goes on long enough for him to get around to doing a 4th or 5th one.

Sure, it's not NEEDED for that fight (though with some of the Tanks and DPSers I had...ahem <_<), but the point is, when fights have a simple cadence raidwide, all the other Healers have several tools, and the CDs are where they can answer MOST raidwides with some form of mitigation or shielding.

WHM is the only one that does not.

And BECAUSE of how simple that fight is, and BECAUSE of how apparent the cadence is, it becomes really apparent how utterly lacking WHM is in the department that it can't even mitigate TWO of them; just the ONE.

If AST didn't, either, that might be a different story - would still "feelsbad", but at least the Pure/Barrier dichotomy would hold - but the fact is AST has 3 per 2 minute period and WHM has as little party mitigation as BLM does is a problem. And ADDLE, of all things, even has a SHORTER cooldown of 90 seconds. So technically, BLM - and SAM with Feint - the selfish DPS, both bring more party mitigation to the table than WHM does! WHM would actually have MORE frequently available mitigation if it actually lost Temperance and was given Addle! (Note: This is NOT something I'm proposing, and the physical mitigation would be half of Temperance's, but it would be available 4/3 times as often.)

It's not hard to find common ground when the topic of said ground is 'WHM has been consistently bent over the table and screwed by SE design for several years, and here's one example (where is my 60s mit) where it's direct competition wipes the floor with it designwise'

There is a problem with "homogenization", but the thing is, WHM had some tools in the past between Proshell (granted, every party wanted it, but it meant an AST/SCH party only had the physical mitigation from it, not the magical) and WHM had spamable Stoneskin (unlike Divine Benison which only has two charges) (and SCH/AST Cross-Classing it only got the base version that was a shield for 12% or whatever HP of the target, not the Trait version WHM got that went up to 18%).

It's hard to worry about homogenization when WHM had the abilities first.

Additionally, homogenization is only a good argument when it's not "all but one have this". If it was JUST SCH or JUST AST that did, that'd be one thing. But the fact is, SCH, AST, and SGE all have this, meaning it's pretty close to a "required for the role" ability. Imagine if SGE didn't have Raise, for example, and people were saying "You can't give SGE a Raise, that'd be homogenization!". Obviously, that wouldn't be an argument (even WoW eventually gave Druids a spamable raise since their unique combat raise - which they got to keep for the flavor, btw - could only be used once per HOUR; not so great for wipe recovery in a 5 man if more than one person died). And mitigation, at this point, is "role essential".

Personally, I feel like “increasing max HP” is the primary answer to mitigation needs that should be White Mage’s wheelhouse. It’s not reducing incoming damage, but it increases how much damage the party can take while also being refillable for its duration, letting tools like regen/medica II or liturgy offer more value for certain mechanics. It’s basically a refillable barrier.

What would be interesting is seeing each healer approach mitigation needs differently as their primary response to big damage.

WHM: increases max HP
SCH: flat mitigation
AST: stagger damage taken
SGE: staggered barriers

That doesn’t need to be their only mitigation strategy, but could be their main 30 second cooldown or something similar.

I actually do agree that there's design space for "different roads; all roads lead to Rome". By my band-aid in the moment issue is that 1 out of 4 can't do a thing that 3 out of 4 currently can, and that's a problem.

[ty_taurus]

I actually do agree that there's design space for "different roads; all roads lead to Rome". By my band-aid in the moment issue is that 1 out of 4 can't do a thing that 3 out of 4 currently can, and that's a problem.

I didn't say otherwise. White Mage does have a glaring flaw in its ability to respond to the necessity of mitigation in harder content. Even Astrologian does, it's just not as bad as White Mage. All Astrologian has over White Mage is Collective Unconscious, which is a 60 second cooldown, but the mitigation only lasts 5 seconds unless you commit to the channel which is literally never the right answer if the boss is targetable, even in healing emergencies, actually casting heals is objectively superior.

Meanwhile, Scholar and Sage together can keep a 10% mitigation on the entire party indefinitely when paired together as long as they manage their resources properly, which isn't that challenging to do.

All I was saying is that, if we're looking at a new expansions worth of changes anyway, I would like to see how each healer responds to mitigation needs be a little different at least if it's going to stay being this massively important factor.

[Avenheit]

when i play 1 button heroes, i play the song called "One - Pluffaduff".

[Zeastria]

I also want to point out that:
it's all right to not like a job/role -> but it doesn't automatically mean it's something wrong with said job/role..
It can also be the fact that it isn't for you..

[WaxSw]

I would like to also point out that most of the complaints are backed with real ingame data so they're not just a matter of like/dislike, otherwise we woudn't have those multiple logs with healers having over 50% of their time pressing one button as well as multiple videos that show how needless the total healing actions that the role have are in the way of 0-1 healer clears of all content, even ultimates.

It would be weird that the role isn't for the people that have more experience and have played it the most too.

[Renathras]

I mean having two buttons to press like a mch rotation to keep uptime is more engaging than 11111111111 forever. Even if it adds nothing of value it adds interest to the class, and I would rather have a class be interesting than feel like im falling asleep piloting it in savages.

This depends on the person. There are several usual posters here - ones who want more damage buttons, mind you - that say a 1-2-3 rotation is the same as 111 and they are opposed to it.

It's why the ideal solution is to have different things on the different Healer Jobs, not just replace "they all have the same thing" with "they all have the same thing, it's just different from the first thing". Look at Melee, for example. In the 5 Melee Jobs, their rotations are:

DRG: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0-5-4 repeat (or something loosely akin to that)
MNK: 1-2-3-4-5-6-1-2-6-4-5-3-1-2-6-4-5-6 repeat (ignoring the Blitz mechanic)
NIN: 1-2-4-1-2-3-...-3-1-2-4 repeat (you can use two -4 combos together and then not have to do another for 60 sec, so there's flexibility, but it's that)
SAM: 1-2-3-1-4-1-5-6 repeat (the order can be changed depending on what you're doing, and Meikyo you use with just -2-4-6, the finishers of each of the three)
RPR: ??? Haven't touched it, but looking at the actions and looking at the Balance guide, the core rotation appears to be (someone can correct this if they want, but it's not really relevant to the point) 1-2-3, it kinda has a -4, but Shadow of Death isn't part of its combo (so is more like Huraijin, except you want to use it) (with a bunch of spenders and stuff thrown in), then it has the burst combos, using different buttons (instead of context changing those), but...yeah, you get the idea.

Point is, they're all different. No two of them can be perfectly mapped together. If you put NIN's 1-2-3 where you put SAM's 1-2-3, then put NIN's -4 where you put SAM's -4, then attempt to play NIN like SAM pressing 1-2-3-1-4...see where the problem comes in? For one thing, Huton wouldn't refresh since Armor Crush doesn't refresh it unless it's part of a properly executed 1-2-4 combo.

Taking all four Healers and giving them a 1-2-3 wouldn't really make them different, it'd just make them a different flavor of all the same, which is the problem. Yes yes, I know "they're all boring" is the problem (to some people), but making them a different same doesn't really fix anything, as even that will get boring. The point is that they should change it up. Take a page from Melee and have each Healer Job have a different rotation. If every Melee played like NIN in 5 aesthetic flavors, it'd be bad design, not good design. No matter how interesting you might find a 1-2-3, giving all Healers the same thing doesn't fix the problem.

Oh, and note that I'm not opposed to a healer having a 1-2-3. I'd actually like ONE to. I think it would fit SGE best, and I hate DoTs, so getting rid of that would be fine with me. I absolutely hate that every Healer's mainline rotation is "DoT + spamnuke until DoT refresh', since I absolutely hate DoTs. Having a Healer that had a 1-2-3 rotation instead of 2-1-1-1-1-1-1 I would prefer.

But I don't think every Healer should have the same rotation. That's the point I'm getting at.

I also want to point out that:
it's all right to not like a job/role -> but it doesn't automatically mean it's something wrong with said job/role..
It can also be the fact that it isn't for you..

Exactly.

I would like to also point out that most of the complaints are backed with real ingame data so they're not just a matter of like/dislike,

But they are.

Keep in mind those metrics are broken down into like/dislike. It's not a case of "just the facts, ma'am". People aren't saying "Healers use 70% of their GCDs on a single button". People are saying "Healers use 70% of their GCDs on a single button over and over again and I find that boring and don't like it".

That said: My position, again, is to mix them up. Being all the same means no one can escape if they dislike the way it plays. Again, it'd be like if every Melee played like NIN. That'd be great for the people who like how NIN plays and can now do it in 5 aesthetic flavors, but it wouldn't be so great for the people who like how DRG or MNK play.

It would be weird that the role isn't for the people that have more experience and have played it the most too.

This is always, 100% of the time, a bad argument.

"played it the most"? Many people who have never set foot in Savage have spent years playing these Jobs. How do we define "played it the most"? If someone started in ShB and has Savage and Ultimate clears but 50 days played vs someone who has played for 500 days going back to 2.X but never touched a Savage or Ultimate, who has "played it the most" between them? Who has "more experience"? Not to mention the various Jobs within the role have played differently from both each other and even from themselves over time/through the expansions.

No, one group does not get exclusive "super-delegate" powers regarding design discussions.

[WaxSw]

But they are.

Keep in mind those metrics are broken down into like/dislike. It's not a case of "just the facts, ma'am". People aren't saying "Healers use 70% of their GCDs on a single button". People are saying "Healers use 70% of their GCDs on a single button over and over again and I find that boring and don't like it".

Not exactly. Its a fact that healers aren't a requirement for the hardest content as that can be cleared without them, its a fact that well liked tools that players enjoyed were removed from the game in favor of that overbloat of healing actions that no content really push for their use and those two combined show that healer design has suffered over the years

The problem about 1 button is not the button per se but how, if we listen to what the dev team says (in Mr Happy's interview for example), they know that 1 button spam is a problematic design but at the same time they enforce it with barely any healing check and high dps checks, they want the players (at least the least skilled) to feel good about how they heal yet they've given so much sustain to all the roles and made the normal modes hit so little that healers become unnecesary. The reward systems of the role are all over the place and one does not need a degree in game design to see it.

Citing Nolan Bushnell "All the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master. They should reward the first quarter and the hundredth." yet healers fail miserably, the reward of the the first quarter is something that isn't really necessary and in the hundredth quarter there is not even a glimpse of a reward system. The current healer design situation is even more sad when you realize that SE has shown they can make the "1 button reward" rotation properly in BLM and its Fire 4 spell.

"played it the most"? Many people who have never set foot in Savage have spent years playing these Jobs. How do we define "played it the most"? If someone started in ShB and has Savage and Ultimate clears but 50 days played vs someone who has played for 500 days going back to 2.X but never touched a Savage or Ultimate, who has "played it the most" between them? Who has "more experience"? Not to mention the various Jobs within the role have played differently from both each other and even from themselves over time/through the expansions.

Thats why I said played the most AND have more experience. It's not just a matter of how many hours you've put into them but how many situations have you experienced with the role and how deep with its systems you've gone because, and I think anyone can agree with this, someone who has put a lot of time into the role and has deep knowledge and experience is not someone who would fall under the "It can also be the fact that it isn't for you..".

This is not about any group having a "super-delegate" powers its about not dismissing arguments that come from a place of experience and knowledge with childish arguments.

The role should work for the first quarter and the hundreth and both should be listened, this is why BLM is such a well designed job while healers have seen several years of non stop complaints.

Edit cause copy pasted things in wrong order