I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ty_taurus]

Trying to come up with 6 different effects that are different yet also equal in value is realistically impossible. What’s annoying about separating buffs based on damage type is that they’re not always applicable. Physical cards are dead to AST while they solo, and we regularly encounter 4-man roulettes, and even sometimes 8-man roulettes that give you an all melee or all ranged DPS comp. While the concept of physical vs magical I think sounds cool, it’s really awkward in practice because we only have 3 magical DPS jobs in contrast to the 9 physical ones.

One thing you could do…

Make Lord of Crowns into an AoE buff that makes all damage physical, and Lady makes all damage magical, like those Bozja lost actions, and have whichever draw based on the last card you played, which creates a sort of fun theme of cheating fate by bending the rules based on your RNG results, but it’s also just another way to bend over backwards to make the cards work when just having 1 button that just applies a flat damage buff makes so much more sense than 6 different shades of the same thing and bloating a kit full of tools to try and justify a clunky system.

I’m not saying I want that outcome, but trying to make all cards equal DPS buffs is just going to result in the same flaws, I believe. The system needs a more critical overview to feel like it’s worth having

[ForsakenRoe]

Trying to come up with 6 different effects that are different yet also equal in value is realistically impossible. What’s annoying about separating buffs based on damage type is that they’re not always applicable. Physical cards are dead to AST while they solo, and we regularly encounter 4-man roulettes, and even sometimes 8-man roulettes that give you an all melee or all ranged DPS comp. While the concept of physical vs magical I think sounds cool, it’s really awkward in practice because we only have 3 magical DPS jobs in contrast to the 9 physical ones.

Then have them affect the 'wrong role' at half effectiveness, like we have now. Problem solved, you'd want to put the magic card on the magic using class, but if you have a team of 4 physical dps because DF gave you that, then you can throw it on them and itll have 'some' effect, just not as much. And it won't matter that it affects them less, because in any content where it DOES matter eg stuff with enrages, you're gonna be making a team that has at least one caster for the 5%

[Azuri]

Then have them affect the 'wrong role' at half effectiveness, like we have now. Problem solved, you'd want to put the magic card on the magic using class, but if you have a team of 4 physical dps because DF gave you that, then you can throw it on them and itll have 'some' effect, just not as much. And it won't matter that it affects them less, because in any content where it DOES matter eg stuff with enrages, you're gonna be making a team that has at least one caster for the 5%

That's not how XIV works. Damage typing is a convoluted mess with no rhyme and reason and the only logical solution Square has been using is to remove damage type specific buffs. MNKs rejoiced when Brotherhood was changed in 5.4. So did RDMs with 6.0 Embolden.

This. Just. Does. Not. Work.

On top of that, the inherent difference between melee and casters in damage means that the magic card is always the trash one. Do you want to pull a buff for SAM or RDM? The answer is too obvious. And then you pull three magic cards in your SAM/DRG/DNC/SMN comp and slap them on the SMN and two healers. And this death wall seems that much more appealing. This is no better than Balance.

[Mithron]

Ooooh. When I read it, I thought Royal Road worked like Redraw (rerolling your card to get a random card with its own RR effect) but it actually consumed the card to put its RR effect onto the next card you play. It’s way cooler than I thought… That does sound like a pain to balance.

Yep, the way it worked was Royal Road gave your next card played an additional effect. So each card you used Royal Road on gave this buff:

Balance/Bole: Next card played had 150% increased effect
Arrow/Spear: Next card played lasted 200% longer
Ewer/Spire: Next card played was AoE for 50% less effect

The fun of AST was taking what you got and trying to make the most of it. Jobs in HW and SB were much more unique, so MNKs and BRDs benefitted from crit a lot more than other jobs. They changed Spear to give extra crit, so if you were pulling strong single target Spears, you'd priortize those on MNKs and BRDs. Arrows were best used on BLMs. Sure you'd have terrible draws and only keep pulling Spires or Ewers or Boles, none of which directly increased DPS, but that was fun. High highs, low lows. Then you'd pull of that AoE Balance and everyone loved you.

[ty_taurus]

Here's a different take on AST than options I mentioned before...

What if the cards themselves no longer provide buffs, and you no longer are targeting other players with them. Drawing and playing a card simply sets that arcana onto your gauge, which acts as a currency for specific actions:

Celestial Opposition requires that you've played The Bole or The Balance. Stops/Stuns all enemies and grants a 10% mitigation to the party if The Bole was played, or ensures the next healing spell received on each party member will restore critical HP if The Balance is played.

Celestial Intersection requires that you've played The Arrow or The Spear. Applies a 6% direct damage buff to a target party member if The Arrow is played, or a 12% critical hit buff to a target party member if The Spear is played.

Celestial Fate requires that you've played The Ewer or The Spire, uses Astrodyne's animation. Restores 15% of your own MP if The Ewer was played, and reduces your casting time by 1.5 seconds if The Spire was played.

The star sign system persists, but once you draw a solar sign, for example, you can't draw another solar sign card until you've gained all 3 signs and activated Divination.

Instead of having Redraw, you instead have Reverse. Reverse flips your current card to the opposite card of the same star sign.

Since the card effect doesn't trigger until you actually use the action, you aren't screwed if you get a card at the wrong time. You simply wait for the right time to use it. Maybe you can also not use that respective action until after the deck resets once Divination is active, yet you can't draw the effects currently in play, allowing you to potentially use each action with both effects, but you'll only get to use them half as often.

[NobleWinter]

The RNG of Draw in the Astro card system in every expansion has always felt a little silly to me. We have things like Redraw being changed to guarantee a different seal to try and fix the problem but Draw should have always been better. A real Tarot reader draws cards about a subject like a person or future event etc. Every card they draw has an interpretation that applies to the question being asked. An Astro likewise is trying to guide their party to victory so drawing cards the party doesn't need makes no sense. Triple melee cards back to back in a dungeon where the tank is the only melee is absurd. Is the Astro just bad at divining fate or is the party not meant to clear the dungeon? Back when Royal Road existed it should have never been possible to Draw four Spires in a row when no one needed TP and yet I remember doing it. Finding Six unique card effects that all felt great would be wonderful but modifying the RNG to adjust for party composition is what I really want. As for Card effects I think we really need more diversity for them to be fun. The reliability of all Balance is nice and I understand not wanting to stray from it but maybe secondary effects that could be turned on with a skill called "Interpretation" could be implemented. This way instead of the default Damage Up you could get Increased Defense again, or MP Regen, or a movement speed buff, etc. Every card still does damage up but can be "Interpreted" as well for a secondary effects that prove useful for niche situations. You might never interpret in a coordinated party but in the larger portion of duties without an enrage the Interpretations could be really fun. If this was the case we could scrap the seals altogether because I never really liked them anyway. Just let every card be a fixed 5% damage increase for anyone in the party and allow the player to choose the secondary Lore appropriate effect if they want. Let Divination be on a timer and be done with it.

[IDontPetLalas]

The RNG of Draw in the Astro card system in every expansion has always felt a little silly to me. We have things like Redraw being changed to guarantee a different seal to try and fix the problem but Draw should have always been better. A real Tarot reader draws cards about a subject like a person or future event etc. Every card they draw has an interpretation that applies to the question being asked. An Astro likewise is trying to guide their party to victory so drawing cards the party doesn't need makes no sense. Triple melee cards back to back in a dungeon where the tank is the only melee is absurd. Is the Astro just bad at divining fate or is the party not meant to clear the dungeon? Back when Royal Road existed it should have never been possible to Draw four Spires in a row when no one needed TP and yet I remember doing it. Finding Six unique card effects that all felt great would be wonderful but modifying the RNG to adjust for party composition is what I really want. As for Card effects I think we really need more diversity for them to be fun. The reliability of all Balance is nice and I understand not wanting to stray from it but maybe secondary effects that could be turned on with a skill called "Interpretation" could be implemented. This way instead of the default Damage Up you could get Increased Defense again, or MP Regen, or a movement speed buff, etc. Every card still does damage up but can be "Interpreted" as well for a secondary effects that prove useful for niche situations. You might never interpret in a coordinated party but in the larger portion of duties without an enrage the Interpretations could be really fun. If this was the case we could scrap the seals altogether because I never really liked them anyway. Just let every card be a fixed 5% damage increase for anyone in the party and allow the player to choose the secondary Lore appropriate effect if they want. Let Divination be on a timer and be done with it.

This sounds much more workable than some of the previous ideas. It sounds like it would provide for both utility in all situations, remove a system that isn't really optimal (seals) plus allow for someone to use their judgement through the best "interpret", which keeps things interesting.

[ty_taurus]

This sounds much more workable than some of the previous ideas. It sounds like it would provide for both utility in all situations, remove a system that isn't really optimal (seals) plus allow for someone to use their judgement through the best "interpret", which keeps things interesting.

It wouldn’t work in practice though. Let’s say The Bole is now a 5% damage buff and a 10% mitigation buff. Well you can’t really use this on the tank because your DRK isn’t going to yield nearly as much return as your SAM, or even your DNC on the damage buff side. The utility would end up feeling largely wasted as most players push to hit their highest DPS party member with every card rather than trying to use the utility. This is exacerbated by the utility effects still being random in some regard. Even if you add in special criteria, like the MP regen card only is pulled when someone’s MP is lower than 50%, it’s really going to take the most disastrous situations to make you put that card on a healer.

It is extremely difficult merge damage with utility in this game because the reality will end up with the damage eclipsing the utility entirely every time without having some type of heavy restrictive element.

[NobleWinter]

I may have not been very clear in my explanation but I meant for the cards to give a damage buff or give a different effect by being interpreted. It would be one or the other. This way every card could be reliably thrown on the person doing the most damage with no thought for whether they are melee or range. I like it being simple like that. The interpretation would be for flavor and have some niche situations where maybe increased defense prevents a death or MP Regen allows for a few extra revives. The systems wouldn't be competing but rather allow for more optimization. You always have extra damage available and some fun RNG utility as well.

[ty_taurus]

I may have not been very clear in my explanation but I meant for the cards to give a damage buff or give a different effect by being interpreted. It would be one or the other. This way every card could be reliably thrown on the person doing the most damage with no thought for whether they are melee or range. I like it being simple like that. The interpretation would be for flavor and have some niche situations where maybe increased defense prevents a death or MP Regen allows for a few extra revives. The systems wouldn't be competing but rather allow for more optimization. You always have extra damage available and some fun RNG utility as well.

Wouldn't that still mean that every card used that provides a utility buff instead of a damage buff becomes a detriment and thus interpreted cards will be avoided like the plague by most players? So long as damage is an option, the utility will be treated as an inferior choice in nearly every scenario in which you could use the utility instead. AST does not need additional mitigation, and if the AST actually does, the game isn't really transparent enough to make that clear. I don't think most anyone would end up using it because it would become viewed as a clutch that AST is better off not relying on. The MP regen as well is something that would almost exclusively be avoided, though I could see it having more value during prog where you know you're not hitting enrage yet and are just trying to get more experience. But by in large, MP management has been done away with, for better or worse.

I don't meant to be an antagonist to the idea of having offense OR utility, and I did thoroughly enjoy old AST and having those moments where using old Bole or old Ewer felt good to take advantage of. And I see that you're trying to take away the random factor that made those cards unreliable, but this game and this community cannot and will not accept sacrificing DPS potential for utility in 95% of scenarios ever. That's just what this game is, whether we like it or not.

I mentioned an alternative a little earlier in this thread about removing Draw and just directly playing Lord, Lady, or Knave while axing the other cards, where the Knave offered that Bole mitigation while still sharing a cooldown with the damage buffs of Lord and Lady. Because in that concept, you required the Celestial Seal granted from Knave in order to use Divination for a party buff, it meant you needed to take a short-term damage loss for a long-term damage gain in the form of your buff window tool. This is how you could introduce utility together in one system--you'd have any card window in that 2 minutes to use your mitigation, and would otherwise spend your cards on Lord and Lady. Now, that's not the solution I really want to see to be honest, and I don't imagine it's what most would want either.

In the past I had a slightly different alternative that embraced a bit more randomness, but essentially functioned the same, which was dividing Draw into three actions that share a cooldown: Solar Draw, Lunar Draw, and Celestial Draw.

Solar Draw resulted in a 5% damage buff OR a 10% crit buff. Both cards generated a Solar Sign
Lunar Draw resulted in a 10% mitigation buff OR a 10% max HP buff. Both cards generated a Lunar Sign
Celestial Draw resulted in Increased regen potency OR your next flat heal or barrier heal is a guaranteed crit. Both cards generated a Celestial Sign.

All 3 signs are required for Divination in this example as well, which means the tank and healer cards are a "necessary evil" if you will in order for a greater reward, but you have control over when you get what type of effect, not unlike your suggestion. And this system does retain the existing 6 cards in a way that's overall more consistent despite still having a random aspect. Even though there's a burden of knowledge element like with the original cards, you know that Solar is for DPS, Lunar is for tanks, and Celestial is for healers. Even if the results on Solar make it slightly inconstant, the variance isn't significant.

What I'm getting at is, you can't make DPS or utility a choice, because utility always loses in this game, love that or hate it. I can totally understand wanting to reject that philosophy, but it's better to create something that respects it rather than tries to fight it. Fight it is what SE continues to do with healer mechanics, like how Toxikon II is a blatant DPS loss and a terrible resource, or how it took, like, 2 and a half years for Afflatus Misery to be DPS neutral.

It's entirely possible that there is a "perfect solution" out there where the choice between damage and utility can feel great, but it is immensely difficult to find that solution and have this community by in large accept it. Meanwhile, trying to create something that respects that relationship is astronomically easier, and those solutions can still be creating, fun, and engaging if done correctly. I think it's much better to try and push in that direction for those reasons.