Differentiating healer identities

[Renathras]

All of the examples are inferences

inferences?

/sigh

I don't know how to say this. Honestly I don't. God help me, I wish I did. You are READING INTO my posts things I DO NOT WRITE and then getting mad about the stuff you mentally added in.

It's not a matter of me "reevaluating how (I) communicate". I've many times before told you exactly what I mean, using direct and unambiguous language, and then you still draw the wrong conclusion, then I outright tell you that isn't what I mean (why I constantly askyou "Can you show me where I said those exact words?"), and then you STILL insist I'm saying it, even when I outright say "I'm not saying THAT, I'm saying THIS". The issue isn't my communication, the issue is you ignore my communication.

As to the latter, see what I posted above: Those others could have not posted what they did, too. And had they not, I wouldn't have posted what I did. At least attack the root of the problem, and on this forum, it's not me.

Regardless, why don't we clear the air and make sure everyone is on the same page.

You are in 100% agreement that healers that want DPS buttons are just as much healers as healers who don't want to DPS, yes?

YES!!!

Why on earth do you think I constantly propose making SGE into a RDM or SMN with splash heals and SCH into an Old SMN DoT Mage with oGCD heals?

I've said it over and over across dozens of threads:

Agreed. It's why my preferred solution to the present situation is to leave one Healer alone (probably WHM, since its kit just kinda works and its identity is pretty solid within it), give SCH more DoTs and interactions, give SGE an actual damage rotation, and fix Cards so they're actually interesting, the AST has some agency in how they pick them/can put their thumb on the scale to pick another, and where drawing, targeting, and playing Arcanum isn't an exercise in carpel tunnel syndrome. Flesh out their identities and give them niches related to that. Give each the tools to do the basic job/role, but with their niches being useful in different situations and their damage rotations being different so that each one can appeal to a different player type; simple, DoT, buffs, rotational.

Can even balance them to do the same damage if the Devs want to, but at least they'd play different and so players that like different playstyles could pick the one they like and enjoy its combat mechanics and gameplay loops.

The thing is, what you find "fun" isn't what everyone finds fun. I hate AST because of how busy it is. I like WHM because of how straightforward and low APM it is. I like WAR and SMN for the same reason. We like different things. Wouldn't it be great if there were classes that played like you like and classes that play like I like so we can both be happy and both have fun in this shared space we call an MMO?

I've already said I think there should be 4 different gameplay styles. In short, direct healing and simple damage, buffing, plate spinning support/damage, and rotational complexity support/damage; WHM (ShB/EW, or ARR with a lot of boosts and tweaks), AST (SB with less RNG), SCH (SB), and SGE (with an actual damage rotation and Kardia interplay)

Another I can't find, but where I talked about how in ARR, we had WHMs acting as main healer while SCH's worked as a support with DPS and healing/mitigation to augment the WHM's healing in a synergistic arrangement where both styles complement each other and overall benefit the party.

I honestly think this is the most accurate take with ONE caveat:

The Healer community is not one monolithic block. Yoshi P recognizes that. Some people like the status quo as it is, some people want to do more healing (required/complexity), some people want to do more damage (required/complexity), and some people want to do more damage and more healing (both). I think Yoshi P recognizes that and isn't sure how to appeal to everyone at the same time.

I've multiple times in this subforum proposed making an approach that appeals to everyone - have one Healer keep the 1 button spam and straightforward healing kit, have one have a more advanced healing and buffing kit, have one have a more advanced damage kit, and have one have a more advanced both. In this way, everyone could/would be satisfied by playing the Healer that plays the way they desire to engage with the content. This is constantly shot down as "You want carries" and similar nonsense, but there's a reason I present it, and it's because of how diverse the Healer community ITSELF is. We don't have 100% or even 99% of Healer players that want more healing, but nor do we have 100% that want more complex rotations, and we have a large amount that are at least satisfied with the status quo. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a convenient way to satisfy all of them at the same time...

But I don't think Yoshi P has figured out what different Healers like, and he gets questions from different segments of the Healer base - some that want more complex damage and some that would quit the role were that the case - and he's confused because, as a non-Healer, he doesn't have personal experience to draw on there, and he doesn't know the Healer divisions well enough to understand that all of these exist at the same time, or how best to appeal to the various Healer factions without alienating the others.

As you say: Many Healers like the increased healing requirements, but you have people wanting more complex damage rotations insisting everyone hates them (since if the more intense healing catches on, that shoots down their chances of getting their desired damage complexity changes and would invalidate their argument that no one wants it and that the game can't work with it as the typical encounter design model).

The answer is: We all exist and we're all Healers, so any potential solution needs to appeal to all four of the factions.

...and we happen to have four Healer Jobs. It's like the stars aligned but no one's figured it out yet. It's like that scene in The Matrix 2. "Three ships. Three objectives." It's convenient to the point of practically fate...

[EDIT: Emphasis Added]

Note this part in particular:

"We all exist and we're all Healers"

And I've said many times that it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round, so good Healer design will have some Healer Jobs appeal to each Healer player type so everyone can be happy and work together and have fun together.

I've said this easily over 50 times, if not over 100, and in dozens of ways.

I will grant you, sometimes I get a bit snarky, but when I constantly say "We're all Healers and we should all be welcome" and get slapped in the face with "No we're not! We're Green DPS!", "Every Job in the game is a DPS!", "You just suck and want carries while being bad!" and so on, I sometimes will throw back with the "Okay, fine, if you want to insist you're already a DPS, then I'll call you a DPS", but it's people literally self-identifying as DPS by saying there's no such thing as Healers in FFXIV and they (proudly) play a DPS role with a green icon.

...but despite that, I never attack them as not being "real healers", and I continue to advocate that any changes to Healers make sure to accommodate them with one or two or even THREE Healing Jobs suited to their preferred playstyle - something I wouldn't do if I was rejecting them as Healers (which they DO reject me as - calling someone a Sylphie is an insult, not a complement) - and hold to that position that ensures they have a place in the Healing role. Which I wouldn't do if I rejected them as Healers.

No group is better than the other or more of a "real healer" than the other in terms of what they want out of the healer role?

Agreed.

The only people I have ire for are those who want to change the ENTIRE role, leaving the people that aren't in their sub-group out in the cold. I believe that's selfish, which is why I don't do it and have continually refused to do it, instead supporting an approach that makes sure each group has at least one Healer that represents their desired playstyle.

We have 4 Healing Jobs (5 if we have dAST and nAST). And there are at minimum 3 and more likely 4 types of Healer player in a general sense - pure Healers, support/buff Healers, damage Healers, and hybrid Healers. Like I mentioned in the discussion on PvP Healers and why I think they're such a good design is that they appeal to each type:

Point being: It's broken the 4 healers into a "debuffer/healer", "buffer/healer", "damage/debuffer/buffer/healer", and "damage...that does a little healing DPSer".

Which I've also stated as more direct healer, support buffer/healer, support damage/debuffer/healer, and damage healer that provides healing/mitigation support.

.

Many words, many quotes, to say:

YES, that is my position, and I've said it many times before. It's also why I've never accused anyone of not being a "real healer" and why I'm always confused when you level that accusation - not only have I not ever said it, I don't believe it, and what I have said is in opposition to the notion.

Cure and Medica WHMs in ARR were Healers. DoT refreshing, Ruin spamming, Lustrate cheese support healing through Cleric dancing SCHs were Healers. They were BOTH Healers in a game design that allowed both playstyles and had a great synergy dynamic between them. That's what I think is the ideal to shoot for. A recognition of all the Healer groups and at least one Healer Job that is focused on each so everyone has at least one they can enjoy playing.

Some people straddle lines - for example, I like Pure Healing and Buff Healing/Support - so no one would necessarily be limited if they enjoyed more than one. But every group should have at least one, and then we can all work together to kill pixels that the game tells us are bad pixels. Together. As friends and allies. As fellow Warriors of Light.

.

No it's not. Literally all you had to say was "your post is fine".

So other people get to say "Your post is bad, Healers are garbage, people that like them are braindead", but to say the opposite isn't allowed? Interesting "rules for thee but not for me (and mine)" you have going there.

You could have said to ignore our critiques on the stance that "healers are not complex" if you wanted

That's...what I did. I straight up said it in the typical internet way "ignore the haters".

still but calling us haters

/facepalm

and that we only like DPS is the part where I'm calling you out and saying it was unnessecary.

Okay, great, fine: Can you also call out everyone who attacked her post on healer complexity and note that what they did was also unnessecary?

Because it was.

There was 0 reason for you to make that comment other than to stir up trouble. And low and behold you have congratulations.

No, the reason I made that post was to encourage someone with a different position who put out good work that they were not alone, that their work was good, and not to be dissuaded by people who are somewhat...jaded and cynical...who were mocking them.

[IDontPetLalas]

inferences?

snip


Okay, great, fine: Can you also call out everyone who attacked her post on healer complexity and note that what they did was also unnessecary?

Because it was.



No, the reason I made that post was to encourage someone with a different position who put out good work that they were not alone, that their work was good, and not to be dissuaded by people who are somewhat...jaded and cynical...who were mocking them.[/hb]

Ok, this is actually rather hilarious. I just read the last line of your reply to Askellington, and here's what you wrote to Ty

"I don't know how to say this. Honestly I don't. God help me, I wish I did. You are READING INTO my posts things I DO NOT WRITE and then getting mad about the stuff you mentally added in." You basically did exactly that yourself when reading OUR posts, and YOU decided to white knight because in your own words "No, the reason I made that post was to encourage someone with a different position who put out good work that they were not alone, that their work was good, and not to be dissuaded by people who are somewhat...jaded and cynical...who were mocking them." when speaking for myself , I had no intent to mock anyone, and I doubt that the other posters did either.

[Renathras]

I mean now you're quoting some innocuous posts,

That weren't innocuous, they're part of the incessant need on this forum for people to reply to anything not talking down Healers with an attack on Healers. That is the root of the problem I pointed out above:

An incessant need in the Healer Role Forums for the (presumably?) majority to respond to any and all posts that aren't badmouthing Healers and Healer design by pointing out how bad Healer design is.

which have nothing at all to do with you,

Which is why I didn't bring them up before; they had nothing to do with me, so I had no need to talk to or about them. I only mention them now because of the "You didn't NEED to post that" applies to almost every post since.

and how you "feel personally attacked".

...where did I say any of those posts had me feeling personally attacked? o.O

This really comes off like you're blowing off steam, not as someone who is a victim.

1) I didn't claim to be a victim.

2) I happen to be one in this case - now that you mention it, but I never claimed it.

3) This person decided to butt into a question I asked someone else to single me out and not call out any of the other people whose comments were also unwarranted and unconstructive. Kind of shows by example how I'm somehow subject to a different set (more constraining) rules than everyone else because I don't hold the "right" position...

And way to add onto the pile to kind of prove your point that I'm a victim here, btw... <_<

You basically did exactly that yourself when reading OUR posts,

No, because I didn't reply to any of your posts. I was saying to the other poster to ignore anyone hating on their guide because it was fine.

And YOU decided that it was about YOU and YOUR post.

[ASkellington]

No, the reason I made that post was to encourage someone with a different position who put out good work that they were not alone, that their work was good, and not to be dissuaded by people who are somewhat...jaded and cynical...who were mocking them.[/hb]

In none of the other posts did they say "the post was bad, healers are garbage, people thae like them are braindead" none. You even quoted them so its obvious that you read them. Could their critique have read better, yes? The point they took issue however was the quote of "healers having a complex rotation.

YOU are the one who said:

Ignore the haters that want to insist Healers are braindead so they can play a DPS in this game

At 0 point was this warranted. And I even TOLD YOU you could have said that you disagree with how complex healers are because its an obvious point of debate. My issue is that your comment comes off as rude and hateful. Don't like it? Don't say it then.

And no, the previous quotes you made do not equal:

So other people get to say "Your post is bad, Healers are garbage, people that like them are braindead"

unless you're talking about another thread or other quotes which, as far as I can see concerning the OP's post was not present and thus not part of this discussion.

Edit:

This person decided to butt into a question I asked someone else to single me out and not call out any of the other people whose comments were also unwarranted and unconstructive. Kind of shows by example how I'm somehow subject to a different set (more constraining) rules than everyone else because I don't hold the "right" position...

It has nothing to do with you "not holding the right position" and everything to do with how you worded the comment. Its rude. No other comment has a "sylphie" drop to the OP's post nor calling any one brain dead. Only yours has the hater comment.

I only pointed it out because you asked IN A FORUM why you get such backlast/hate/vitriol thrown right back at ya, and that comment was a clear example. I'm trying to help you. Don't want my unsolicited advice, don't use it.

[Renathras]

Okay, dude, NO.

I only pointed it out because you asked IN A FORUM why you get

I asked A SPECIFIC POSTER why he follows me between threads attacking me over and over as he has done and you butted in to throw in your unwelcome and unwarranted 2 gil and look at the dogpile YOU started.

YOUR comment was unwarranted.

.

You don't get to say "They get to say what they want, but YOUR post, even though you referenced no one and attacked no one, was 'unwarranted'". Hell, DEFINE "unwarranted". Let's start with that.

Actually, you know what? Never mind. I don't give enough of a damn right now and I'm not interested enough in this stupid dogpile to bother engaging further in it.

You guys can find some other punching bag to gang up on and harass.

[ASkellington]

snip

I literally told you what was unwarrented about your comment. Legit just the hater part. What part of that is so hard to understand?

It has nothing to do with you wanting to defend a post or your stance on healers and literally the fact you added in an unnecessary comment directed to other people. That's it.

I told you saying the post was fine was fine. I even left the other part of your quote out because I had no issue with it. Because there's nothing wrong with it. As you said the post was fine and I don't really care about the OP's comment on whether or not the healer tool kit is complex.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The person was just posting their guide and was getting trashed by people who could have just said "I disagree a bit about something, but good guide overall. Nice work."

Re-reading again, I personally don't see any of our (IDontPetLalas, glamazon, and myself) comments been made with an intent to trash the creator.

A praise, feedback, and criticism works hand in hand to make a good guide. Saying that you disagree without laying out the whys isn't exactly helpful for the creator. If I can tell them why without being vague and using million words worth of pedantry, I'll try my best.

And yet, I was the one person defending them:

Ignore the haters, some people just want to insist Healers are braindead (the reason for this is to get them changed into being more like DPSers, because these people want to play something like a DPSer in this game); your guide is great. Thanks for sharing it! o/

...Seriously? L M F A O

[ForsakenRoe]

Seems to me the disconnect here is that Ren thinks when we say 'green DPS' we mean it literally, as in 'a DPS with a green icon', rather than how we actually mean it, as the jokey meme that it is, caused by 'healers have so much downtime between healing bursts, they kinda feel like DPS with healing tools slapped on'

Also in the other thread I pointed out an attitude issue, and your response was 'No I don't have an attitude issue'. But how can you tell, if you're not the one on the receiving end of the attitude?

[Renathras]

Also in the other thread I pointed out an attitude issue, and your response was 'No I don't have an attitude issue'. But how can you tell, if you're not the one on the receiving end of the attitude?

This works both ways, friend. As I noted, you have an attitude as well. Most of you do - but as you note, you don't see it since you're not on the receiving end of it.

I agree with your first point, though. But this comes from what I always note - there are different people and they have different perspectives. While you may mean one thing by it, there are people here in some of these discussions that do mean it literally. Several have argued that every Job is a DPS Job, for example. And not in the sense of "had some ability that does damage" but rather "their entire job is to kill the boss". So try to keep those things both in mind.

I'm also the only one - attitude or not - that has tried to make peace with people or a cease fire and been rebuffed. Meaning I'm clearly not the only one with issue or attitude. And I pointed this out before, too.

I mean, I keep saying it as a joke but it might as well be a reality that if RDM ever gets a Vermedica spell, it's likely to become the most popular "healer".

I've said this for a while, too.

If I had a healer that had RDM's core rotation, so the white/ black magic spells and the melee combo and the finishers and Enchanted Reprise for uptime during movement I would be happy. No damage oGCDs necessary, just the core GCD part and I'd be happy. Would also leave enough real estate on hotbars for a solid healer toolkit without having to add a myriad of fluff/ copy buttons just so the hotbars don't look as barebone as healer gameplay is.
Could easily add a trait to Dualcast that if it got triggered by Vercure/ Vermedica, you'd get a damage bonus on your next spell and then add some other buttons for healing.

I've also said this for a bit. One of my common proposals for SGE is that it be made like RDM's caster rotation (maybe not the melee part, but the caster part and the finishers), and where it uses Kardia for healing, including a second Kardia and an AOE Kardia which both have short CDs so you can basically use them when needed for mechanics.

[Allegor]

I mean, I keep saying it as a joke but it might as well be a reality that if RDM ever gets a Vermedica spell, it's likely to become the most popular "healer".