Can we get a 'Role Sprout' icon?

[PirateRyanG]

I dont think its needed.

Sprout icon is there to tell someone's new to the game, not that someone was too lazy to read basic tooltips

It isn't a case of not reading tool tips.

Some tool tips can be tough to understand, especially when you pick up a job that starts at a high level. Samurai, for instance, requires a lot of connecting the dots to work out what the words mean. I don't normally play DPS and even reading the tool tips made it seem confusing as hell.

There is an ability for AST. Forgot the name. The tool tip says that it activates when you have drawn 3 cards. Great!

Not so much, because the tool tip misses a key piece of information. This is the fact that the ability won't activate if you draw those cards out of combat.

So, there i am standing like a moron outside my home trying to work out what I needed to do to activate the ability. It just wasnt working no matter what I did, so I thought I misread it.

Once I got into a dungeon, I realised that it only activates on combat. Tool tip said nothing about that.

A lot of abilities are about learning how and when to use them. You can wail on a target dummy as much as you like, but you won't learn how to use those abilities in a real environment. The movement, etc.

Try learning how to pick up adds on a target dummy. Even that role trainer thing (that you unlock at level 15) won't teach you what you need to know for a real environment.

Duty support? The only ones I have done wouldn't allow you to learn as a healer or tank. One I did saw my duty support wipe multiple times. In the early dungeon with the fire dude at the end when he becomes untargetable until you kill the adds, the duty support tank just stood in the aoe (as did the dps) requiring me to heal through that and kill the adds.

You aren't going to go into any dungeon knowing your role perfectly. Ever. I have healed at a high level in every mmo I have ever played (bar ff14 as I am not at end game yet) and I will still require live practice when I pick up a new game, or I'll be terrible at it.

I mean, even jumping from whm to ast will have you heal on a slightly different way. The latter requires much more emphasis on your mana generating skills, which can be tricky to pick up and no tool tips are going to help there. Same with wrapping your head around the dishing out of the cards.

SGE can also be tricky to understand initially as the activation of your most powerful skills (ones that you should be using afaik, I am still new) require the activation of another skill beforehand for some reason. While reading the tool tips can help, you still got to get into the flow of things in a real environment.

But sure. Read the tooltips. That will teach you to play your class flawlessly.

[GTK0HLK]

-cut-

I get what you mean, but that basically is what people mean by tooltips.., To Read them, and practice.<but that reading, and practices is what usually gets repeated when improving for higher end content. but isn't solely for that.>

People expect, and reasonably expect at that, some basic competency when at higher levels.
But, whilst not wholly related to the topic, there needs to be improved teaching within the game.
But I assume they added the grid/chain view of the Actions Window to alleviate for some classes that have larger combos.<whilst with healers as you used, are mostly what combined with what gives the Greater output in healing, since there is no complexity in dealing Damage. Except for Sage.>

Tldr. we got what you mean, but the large majority understand that when someone says "READ YOUR TOOLTIPS.. !"-Jocat.
they mean for you to go and figure out how the skills interact act with each other on a dummy, and easy enough mobs that won't kill you when you're learning before giving it a shot I. easy content.<obv not all this at once. but this is the reasonable thing some would say they get from that. if they were to explain it to someone, as I do to you now>

[Tiramu]

I get what you mean, but that basically is what people mean by tooltips.., To Read them, and practice.<but that reading, and practices is what usually gets repeated when improving for higher end content. but isn't solely for that.>

People expect, and reasonably expect at that, some basic competency when at higher levels.
But, whilst not wholly related to the topic, there needs to be improved teaching within the game.
But I assume they added the grid/chain view of the Actions Window to alleviate for some classes that have larger combos.<whilst with healers as you used, are mostly what combined with what gives the Greater output in healing, since there is no complexity in dealing Damage. Except for Sage.>

Tldr. we got what you mean, but the large majority understand that when someone says "READ YOUR TOOLTIPS.. !"-Jocat.
they mean for you to go and figure out how the skills interact act with each other on a dummy, and easy enough mobs that won't kill you when you're learning before giving it a shot I. easy content.<obv not all this at once. but this is the reasonable thing some would say they get from that. if they were to explain it to someone, as I do to you now>

Neah, its a crutch to run players down if they struggle with stuff. The tooltips explain a lot of stuff, and its important that players read them, but they dont tell you how to play a job and there are fundamental things they dont tell you.

[Shibi]

People expect, and reasonably expect at that, some basic competency when at higher levels.

Well, this is the whole point of the suggestion.

People can start a new class in this game, and using one example, if one has only DPSed until now, stepping into a SGE's (my main) shoes is a huge change of thought. The tooltips really don't tell a beginner to healing how to sage and there are no healing dummies. So it needs practice, and that practice needs people. So, it would be nice to have a symbol that you know the game darned well, and can do all the mechanics, but don't yet understand the mitigations of a SGE and when to use them, so take it a little bit easy please.

[GTK0HLK]

{edit: Finally, I talk too much, the now pointless daily limit got me}

-cut-

It's only a Crutch if you assume the vast majority of players will use it as a crutch to do so. But that isn't really the case. The mi ority that will, will be called out on it, and reported.

If anything SE/CBUIII needs to improve in-game resources to allow players of any level to tran themselves. <like an eternal SSS/Burning Field or what's it called that unlocks updates after the next patch/expac. but for different levels of content, and healing>

-crop-

Others have me convinced after seeing their points that the chance of it being abused, even if locked is much higher. I agree it's a good point. you can get that from my first posts in this thread.<thinking about how it'd work if it shows up, or what judges a person. as a role sprout again, cause People can lose skill faster over time than gain it>
And I did mention Healers in my post anyway if it was read.

People are willing to lend a hand, and are understanding. Specially when a player let's it know to the party that it has been awhile.
<Those on console still are able to communicate. I'm not wholly sure if they have a auto response. but tbh, there should be. if se hasn't though of that.>
[and this, have to say just in case, is a separate topic from Player cooperation. or a teams personal perception of how it a dungeon should be run.]

And like I said, while it may have extra steps. the one player that is worried to the point of being immovable. would slowly scale up where they practice content.
And simply put, just jumping into it doesn't always help the player. as they may result in just using the same skills.<for example pepsis being the most common one for players to figure out its specific usage last>

we need better teaching resources.
and like said I did point it out in my previous post. cause the Role Sprout icon is something that many could put on. and if it has restrictions even if the player still feels uncomfortable in the role, it's unfortunate if they lose it.

But they'll need restrictions to prevent the chances of abuse.
<which loops into itself>
[a player can still go into content and practice. it's just simply letting players know what to expect, which the majority are understanding. the icon would only highlight that, but it wouldn't do them any good since they still need to practice In an instance or in the open world. and read the tooltips.]
(Good idea, hence why I questioned how it'd work in my first post. but it might end up like a mentor Crown, but one that can be used to troll. and people will accept cause they assume they're new again to the role.)

[Tiramu]

It's only a Crutch if you assume the vast majority of players will use it as a crutch to do so. But that isn't really the case. The mi ority that will, will be called out on it, and reported.

If anything SE/CBUIII needs to improve in-game resources to allow players of any level to tran themselves. <like an eternal SSS/Burning Field or what's it called that unlocks updates after the next patch/expac. but for different levels of content, and healing>

The reason I say it's a crutch is because experienced players tend to act like reading the tooltips will teach a player how to play their role to a competent degree. They don't and a lot of the issues players have are baked into the games design.

For example, just off the top of my head:

- Do not teach a tank to mitigate or pull

- That red skills can be interrupted and yellow skills cannot; despite it being completely unintuitive.

- Do not teach healers which debuffs can and cannot be cleansed

- Do not teach you the optimal pre-pull buff order, or when you should ideally use your buffs.

- Do not teach healers which healing spells they should be using, and in some cases encourage them into bad habits.

- Ninjas mundra combos are buried away in the Actions and Skills panel

- For some weird reason LB is not defaulted onto the hot bar like other important skills

- The LB tooltip gives a vague description for each role

- They give a vague indicator for rotations, but there isn't a clear explanation. Hell, we just use certain rotations because in Icy Veins and Wesk Alber we trust.

- Tooltips do not teach battle mechanics, we tend to learn those through trial and error, being told, or watching guides. Nobody can be good at their job until they have the mechanics for individual battles down, and at times mechanics can be so abstract there is no wonder people struggle with them.

we need better teaching resources.

^ This is the problem, the game does a lacklustre job of teaching new players how to play the game. The job quests should actively be teaching players the fundamentals of their jobs, what their rotations should look like, tiered skills should upgrade and downgrade based on level/level cap, and teach the kind of mechanics that players are going to encounter in the content ahead.

Furthermore, I think the speed in jobs can level is a problem. I've discussed before how I played SMN to about around lv60, unlocked Scholar and rolled into around lv60 content... it made learning Scholar much harder than it needed to be.

When I unlocked PLD I went from Lv16 to 52 in 7 dungeons. That is nowhere near enough time for someone who has never tanked before to learn how to tank. This is on a pref. server, but still.

It's here where a job specific sprout icon could come in useful, especially if it grew based on how much content they'd have completed on that job.

[Tiramu]

Others have me convinced after seeing their points that the chance of it being abused, even if locked is much higher. I agree it's a good point. you can get that from my first posts in this thread.<thinking about how it'd work if it shows up, or what judges a person. as a role sprout again, cause People can lose skill faster over time than gain it>

This specifically, because my post was too long, I don't think it matters. Trolls and griefers are going to troll and grief anyway, and a job sprout icon isn't going to change that. They have the ability to pretend to be new to mess with other players with the current icon, or with no icon at all.

Worrying about abuse of sprout icons is worrying about a problem that exists with or without.

[Illmaeran]

So, can we get some sort of 'Role Sprout' icon?

I wish they'd do this. I've got WHM at 50 but haven't played it since ARR and am too nervous to be tossed into something I'm not ready for that I won't touch it. My only other option is directly queuing for all the dungeons in increasing level order to get used to new skills incrementally. That's not exactly appealing.

[PirateRyanG]

I wish they'd do this. I've got WHM at 50 but haven't played it since ARR and am too nervous to be tossed into something I'm not ready for that I won't touch it. My only other option is directly queuing for all the dungeons in increasing level order to get used to new skills incrementally. That's not exactly appealing.

I don't think WHM at 50 has that many spells now. The actual spells seem to roll in after this. I don't know if this has changed from before?

In Level 50 MSQ, I can only seem to recall using the following with any great frequency:

1. Cure II
2. Medica I
3. Medica II
4. Regen

Plus the 3 DPS spells.

On Ultima Weapon, I do have to drop a Lucid Dreaming to regain mana if the group is fairly new, but nothing too crazy. That fight is incredibly long (both halves), and tough keeping up Mana when people fail to avoid the AOEs (which is fine, I did the same when I was new).

You should be fine at level 50 WHM as the toolkit is incredibly limited.

Most of the time, you can just drop a regen on the tank and then DPS away. You may have to throw in a Cure II every so often, and then a Medica II and Medica I on a boss.

And yeah, gaining the skills incrementally isn't appealing at all. For the first half of ARR dungeons, you have a single target cure, an AOE heal, a DPS spell and a DOT. It isn't until level 35 you get anything else worthwhile.

[RukoBoshi]

I wish they'd do this. I've got WHM to level 50 but haven't played it since ARR and am too nervous to be tossed into something I wouldn't be ready for that I won't touch it even though I want to do all the role quests. My only other option is directly queuing for all the dungeons in increasing level order to get used to new skills incrementally. That's not exactly appealing.

MSQ roulette is great for this. It's pretty easy and it's the first thing i did with Sage after reading my tooltips.
Also there's the trust for ARR and HW now, i imagine it can be a nice place to learn your job from 50 to 60.